36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

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Brucey
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by Brucey »

Lost not Found wrote: My questions definitely been answered, no there isn't something easily accessible that will definitely work but Rose Bikes are the best bet...


They are cheap wheels and user reports vary somewhat. The spoke breakage warranty is in practice almost worthless, since implementing it costs a lot more than buying replacement spokes.

If you wanted (say) a robust frameset to suit your specific (and uncommon) needs, you might be best advised to go see a decent framebuilder and have him spec something. In the case of wheels, I'd suggest a similar approach.

There is only one really good reason for wanting narrow wheels and that is to fit narrow tyres and to go racing; this is in stark contrast to the requirements of a reliable commuting wheelset... If you look at the tyre pressure required to get the best out of narrow 23mm tyres when there is a significant load on them, you will probably find that the appropriate pressure (given by the 25% drop condition, say) is outside of the range of recommended pressures for either most tyres or perhaps the rim itself.

For your intended use I'd suggest that a 28mm rear tyre and a 28mm (or perhaps 25mm) front would be the thing that would work best. This enables you to go up a rim size in the rear which then makes the wheel a LOT stronger. If you are a powerful rider then even a conventional 36 spoke wheel is going to struggle; if you want the best reliability I'd suggest a wheel with a reduced dish too.

You don't say what gearing you are using but it is usually possible to (say) build a wheel to 132mm (which will fit in a 130mm frame) with a 7s freehub body that uses (say) 8 from a 9-speed cassette. This, if built properly, should be an extremely robust wheel.

cheers
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mig
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by mig »

how much does a riding style affect the longevity of a wheel? i'm thinking of heavier riders who 'roll' in the saddle from side to side as they pedal in the main. does the twisting effect of such a style produce the worst type of destructive force on a spoked wheel? that and keeping full weight in the seat over significant bumps.
mercalia
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by mercalia »

i think I read some where they are never in stock - you have to place an order
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interestedcp
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by interestedcp »

Brucey wrote:
Lost not Found wrote: My questions definitely been answered, no there isn't something easily accessible that will definitely work but Rose Bikes are the best bet...


They are cheap wheels and user reports vary somewhat. The spoke breakage warranty is in practice almost worthless, since implementing it costs a lot more than buying replacement spokes.


I don't really think their spoke warranty is worthless, they sell a huge amount of traditionally designed 36H 3X wheels both locally and on the net. They also have free postage on return items and valid warranty claims; you just print a return label from section 5: http://www.rosebikes.com/content/help/t ... conditions
and mail the item back to Rosebikes. If spoke breakage was the norm, they would be swamped with people mailing their wheels back at Rosebikes expense.

Of course, Rosebikes also makes the occasional bad or marginal wheel set, but then again, so does even makers of expensive hand crafted wheels apparently. So IMHO, it is important what guarantees the wheel maker makes, and how they handle failures.

The bicycle industry have really bad attitudes towards what end users can expect from a wheel. Spoke breakage is blamed on the consumers, because they are too heavy, or they must have hit a pot hole or similar, leaving the wheel owner slightly guilty for breaking spokes. Spoke breakage and regular truing is considered the normal state of affairs, and not what it really is, a failure from the manufacturer in making a product that is fit for purpose.
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Brucey
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by Brucey »

Re the guarantee; it is better than nothing but it will still cost you to implement it. In the event of spoke breakage you must remove the wheels, strip them, package them and then be without them for a week or two (I suppose). Even if the shipping is paid this costs more than money!

By the time you are half-way through the packing you could have fixed a spoke and been on your way, instead of being without your wheels for a fair period of time. So I would suppose that this is what most sensible people actually do.

I understand quite well what it takes to obtain wheels that are fit for purpose; they need to be correctly specified for the task in hand, and as for the building I know that it takes expensive equipment (the use of which does not guarantee success by any means) or a good deal of time and effort.

I therefore find it surprising that Rosebikes typically sell complete wheels for less than the price of the parts; they appear to accord the business of their wheelbuilding 'no value' -or even a 'negative value'- so they should hardly be surprised when others do likewise!

As for the matter of specification, they will sell anyone anything; there is no guarantee that what they sell you is really suitable for the service conditions.

Cyclists commonly think of 130mm 8/9/10s 36 spoke wheels with 14g spokes as being something very robust these days; they are of course nothing of the sort. They are more or less a poor substitute for 40 or 48 spoke wheels, and/or wheels with less dish. At one time (rather sensibly IMHO) 40 spoke rear wheels were the norm on British bikes, and most of them had less dish than modern wheels, too.

Now we have a situation where most cyclists have been duped into thinking that even 32 spokes is overkill somehow... :roll:

cheers
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foxyrider
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by foxyrider »

Brucey wrote:
Now we have a situation where most cyclists have been duped into thinking that even 32 spokes is overkill somehow...



It is, i'm sure i've seen a hobbyhorse with just 4 spokes, mind they were a bit thicker than todays kit, maybe a bit heavier too but your local wheelright could sort it out if you broke the wheel! :lol:
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
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interestedcp
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by interestedcp »

Brucey wrote:Re the guarantee; it is better than nothing but it will still cost you to implement it. In the event of spoke breakage you must remove the wheels, strip them, package them and then be without them for a week or two (I suppose). Even if the shipping is paid this costs more than money!


If you kept the original package, you can just take the tyre off, drop them in, put the return label on box and mail them. For some this will be easier than finding a trustworthy LBS mechanic without a waiting list, and certainly cheaper. Others have access to a great mechanic who lives around the corner and makes priority repairs for a good costumer etc, so of course, circumstances may vary.

My main point is, that if Rosebikes offers free spoke repairs for 10 years on their wheels, and they offer free postage back and forth, many people would use it despite having a week's "downtime" on their bicycle, because the alternative would cost money or be even more bothersome. Add to that, the huge local sale from their physical shop, and it would add up to significant cost to live up to that warranty if too many of their wheels started breaking spokes.

If it really was inconsequential for wheel builders to offer 10 years spoke breakage warranty and free shipping back and forth, you would see a lot of wheel builders offer it.


Brucey wrote:I therefore find it surprising that Rosebikes typically sell complete wheels for less than the price of the parts; they appear to accord the business of their wheelbuilding 'no value' -or even a 'negative value'- so they should hardly be surprised when others do likewise!


Rosebike can't compete with pure box-shifters on the price of individual components. They have a real shop and many mechanics employed, so they can't cut cost like a pure internet retailer can. So they compete on service and costumer satisfaction rather than price. You can usually buy hubs and rims for a lower price elsewhere than Rosebikes.

But since they firmly believe in traditionally designed 36H 3X wheels and sell a lot of bikes with them, they already have the infrastructure for building such wheels, and the more wheels they sell, the cheaper they can make them.

So they try to compete on complete wheels where they have an advantage over the box shifters, rather than on components which is why they sell some wheel models below the (high) price of the components. But notice, it is only on selected mass produced models they do so. For individual, non standard wheels, you pay a much higher price.


Brucey wrote:As for the matter of specification, they will sell anyone anything; there is no guarantee that what they sell you is really suitable for the service conditions.


All their standard 36H 3X wheels are suitable for general riding even with loaded panniers. AFAIK, Jobst Brandt and others made Finite Element Analysis of such wheels and found they had a (static?) load carrying capacity of around 400 kg with around 100 kgf spoke tension. Sure, a heavy rider hitting a deep pot hole at very high speed may exceed that load, making it possible for the spokes to unscrew if no thread locker is used. But it is still much better than the vast majority of low spoke factory wheels.
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Brucey
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by Brucey »

I think that spoke breakages should be avoided by careful component specification and good building practice.

I also think that if you can remove wheels, tyres, cassettes etc, and/or repair a puncture then you should be able to replace a spoke if needs be; accidents can happen even with the best wheels.

If your LBS suggested that you should dismantle your bike yourself and then be without it for a week or more for them to fix a broken spoke this would be deemed to be an unacceptably poor level of service!

So if you expect to rely on a postal warranty against spoke breakage then you are effectively consigning yourself to a similarly poor level of service. It would surprise me greatly if very many wheels are returned to RB in the case of a single broken spoke, or for them to have any good idea of how reliable their wheels really are as a consequence.

I don't understand what you are trying to say regarding pricing; none of it addresses the inherent contradiction in that their built wheels are cheaper than the parts bought separately, despite the fact that RB have an aggressive pricing strategy for parts supply.

36h wheels are stronger than 32h ones of course but they are clearly not strong enough for every application; one of the most common faults seen in LBSs everywhere is a collapsed back wheel. There is a very clear need for stronger wheels (with more spokes) in many cases; simply building wheels with x36 thicker spokes is not a good solution!

cheers
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531colin
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by 531colin »

interestedcp wrote:....................

Rosebike can't compete with pure box-shifters on the price of individual components. They have a real shop and many mechanics employed, so they can't cut cost like a pure internet retailer can. So they compete on service and costumer satisfaction rather than price. You can usually buy hubs and rims for a lower price elsewhere than Rosebikes....................................

So they try to compete on complete wheels where they have an advantage over the box shifters, rather than on components which is why they sell some wheel models below the (high) price of the components. But notice, it is only on selected mass produced models they do so. For individual, non standard wheels, you pay a much higher price.................


Business simply doesn't work like that.
You don't have the mechanics and the physical shop supported by the virtual shop, any more than you have the supermarket café supporting the butchery.......each department has its own profit centre and target.

To buy at the best price as a cycle retailer, you need to do 2 things.....you need to buy in bulk, and you need to convince the manufacturers that the stuff you buy could potentially end up fitted to bikes you build yourself in-house and put your name on. Then you can get an "OEM" account....original equipment (for) manufacture....your parts come in plastic bags, and the price is such that you can sell to the public at little more than the UK wholesale price. The small retailer (LBS) has to buy at the full wholesale price, from the approved UK wholesaler.....for this, your parts come in a cardboard box..."retail packaging".

So to that extent, the bike manufacturing side of the business "supports" the parts retailing side, in that you can't buy at the best price if you don't "manufacture".

You say only Rose "mass market" wheels are cheap, due to bulk production, but there is a contradiction in that the wheels are never shown "in stock" and Rose say they are built "to order"....so they are not built in a big production run and stored, but the machines are set up fresh each time to produce a small number of wheels.

If I had to guess at the reason behind Roses wheel pricing, my guess would be that they wish to dominate the market.
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531colin
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by 531colin »

And while I'm at it, I'll disagree with this, too.....

interestedcp wrote:................

The bicycle industry have really bad attitudes towards what end users can expect from a wheel. Spoke breakage is blamed on the consumers, because they are too heavy, or they must have hit a pot hole or similar, leaving the wheel owner slightly guilty for breaking spokes. Spoke breakage and regular truing is considered the normal state of affairs, and not what it really is, a failure from the manufacturer in making a product that is fit for purpose.


The industry must share some of the blame for making cheap bikes, but its the customers who expect bikes to cost next to nothing.
And its 16 stone riders who insist on riding wheels that are built for racing, and built to a weight and strength specification for 10 stone racers......its the riders who want more and more gears, and lighter and lighter wheels with fewer and fewer spokes, but its the poor sod in the bike shop that gets sworn at when something fails.

Read "The wheel rant"......http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wheels.asp
iandriver
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by iandriver »

So what is it about the wider rim that people think makes the rims stronger? The DT Swiss rim I always use (RR 585) is heavier than a TK 540 trekking rim and has the same system weight recommendation as a TK 540 (130 kg rider and bike) http://www.dtswiss.com/Components/Rims-Road/RR-585 middle link on the PDFs.

I admit, if there was a 36 hole version, I'd use that, but in practice the 32 hole version isn't causing me problems and with an emergency kevlar spoke, that I've never needed with these, I'm happily riding around with the right width rim for the 28 mm tyres I like to Audax on.
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....
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531colin
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by 531colin »

To make a fishing rod whippy, you make it narrow.
To make a frame tube stiff you make it wide.
There is a difference between 23mm and 28mm tyres, although some rims will take either, they are a different "target market" in terms of ideal rim width.
In the simplest of terms, to share a load between the most spokes, you need a stiff (wide, deep) rim and stretchy (thin) spokes. (this ignores the dish, which throws a spanner in the works)
iandriver
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by iandriver »

I see where you're coming from with lighter road rims, but with a 30mm deep section these are very stiff. They seem to have made the strength in depth rather than width. Or are we talking about side to side rather than from rim to hub?
Supporter of the A10 corridor cycling campaign serving Royston to Cambridge http://a10corridorcycle.com. Never knew gardening secateurs were an essential part of the on bike tool kit until I took up campaigning.....
Brucey
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by Brucey »

rims need to be stiff in all directions, and making hollow box sections wider helps too.

in point of fact the torsional stiffness of the rim section is important in determining at which point Euler buckling can occur.

If you are always going to use 28mm tyres there is no real advantage in using a skinny rim and there are several disadvantages.

cheers
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MartinC
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Re: 36 Spoke narrow wheels that work out the box?

Post by MartinC »

531colin wrote:..............Business simply doesn't work like that................................If I had to guess at the reason behind Roses wheel pricing, my guess would be that they wish to dominate the market.


Don't judge the rest of the world by UK standards. Rose's business model is more akin to Aldi and Lidl - provide good products and services at a price the consumer wants and build a long term business, not leverage the assets to the maximum to provide a short tem benefit for the shareholders. You can see this in the range of products they sell - it's more about providing a service than increasing profit through low inventory.

Germany is a large market for utility and trekking bikes (huge compared to the UK). Also, in my opinion having worked in Germany and with German business units, Germans are fairly demanding consumers. If you're offering a 10 year guarantee in Germany you'll be expected to honour it and they'll make a point of holding you to it. What happens in the UK is pretty irrelevant.

Rose will have access to components at good prices because they're an OEM, they buy in volume and they're not buying through UK agents at prices inflated for the UK (look at Shimano and B&M prices). You can't stock custom built wheels by definition - what they do appear to have is a very efficient JIT building process. I don't know what use of machines they make to do this. If they have moved to machine building then then either the process works or they're going to catch a cold on their warranty.

My experience of Rose wheels is that they're good and this matches most others experience too, so maybe there's not great need to theorise about the reasons.

I don't think there's any great mystique about the pricing either. They obviously have a reasonable mark up on all the components (especially if you include tapes, tubes and tyres) so you simply price the wheel as the cost to them of the components, the labour and your desired margin on the wheel. It's back to the first paragraph - not the UK approach of adding up all the retail prices and then add a bit more because you can. They seem to apply the same logic to bike pricing to.

I'm not knocking UK wheel builders - there are some very good ones. They're all pretty small operations in comparison so their costs are bound to be higher, especially in the UK. You'd also need to put a price on the advice they can give you too.

I'm not sure that Rose have any pretensions about world domination. Having used them for many years I have the impression that the UK market came looking for them rather than the other way round.

Back to the OP, if Rose have got what you want then it's probably good value option.
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