Difference between "winter" tyres and studded tyres

[Vorpal]

Studded tyres work fine while you are riding the bike on ice but not much use when you are pushing it or even just putting your foot down carelessly.

I think I've seen some howlers on video where someone has put a foot down and suddenly discovered the spiked tyres have traction but their foot does not

I almost did that the first time I rode my bike with studded tyres. I didn't realize how effective they were until I put my foot down and almost fell over. I did fall over dismounting once last winter. I'm going to get studs for my boots, too & wear those when it's properly icy.

[CJ]

So mi'lord, I ask the witness again, "Do winter tyres keep you upright on the ice or not?" Because if they do not, I put it to this court that they are in fact no better than ordinary tyres. Either they do or they don't. Either your bum is bruised or it is not. Better is not good enough. I rest my case mi'lord.

That is an unanswerable and I'm sorry to say silly question. No tyre will "keep you upright". What keeps you upright is a combination of tyre grip and rider skill. None of us know how good you are at keeping upright on regular tyres, so how can we possibly say whether some other tyre will make enough difference for you?

We've heard plenty of good reports though, of using these tyres in more or less slippery conditions up to and including ice. As I can usually stay upright on ice (in my foolish youth I once rode a mile on the frozen surface of the Coventry canal!) I don't think I need much more grip to turn usually into almost always.

But YMMV.

One reason your mileage may vary is there's a lot more variation in the slipperiness of ice than one might think. Paradoxically it's much less slippery when it's really cold (e.g. when I rode on that canal it was like minus ten), since then the surface remainss frozen, does not melt under pressure to put a lubricating film of water under your tyre. And dirty ice has much more grip, so when I can't ride far enough out in the road to keep totally clear of a frozen puddle, I change tack completely and go for the gutter. It's safer to ride continuously on dirty, gritty ice than to catch one patch of smooth and clean ice. Ice with a dusting of snow on top is usually pretty safe too. It seems that at around freezing the snow melts and re-freezes onto the ice and keys into the tyre. But snow doesn't always do that. It seems if it's too cold or too thick it just skids around on top, which is worse.

That studded tyres grip any kind of ice very well is not in dispute. But they are so HORRIBLE to ride on tarmac that I for one will welcome a relatively modest improvement in grip if I don't have to work so much harder for it or put up with a constant buzz.

[mjr]

I almost did that the first time I rode my bike with studded tyres. I didn't realize how effective they were until I put my foot down and almost fell over. I did fall over dismounting once last winter. I'm going to get studs for my boots, too & wear those when it's properly icy.

Homebase currently has a elastic string overbag things (Yaktrax clones) in their special offer bins. I failed to note the price, though.

[horizon]

So mi'lord, I ask the witness again, "Do winter tyres keep you upright on the ice or not?" Because if they do not, I put it to this court that they are in fact no better than ordinary tyres. Either they do or they don't. Either your bum is bruised or it is not. Better is not good enough. I rest my case mi'lord.

That is an unanswerable and I'm sorry to say silly question.

It isn't a silly question Chris. While ice might vary, it is what brings a bike down. Mud and gravel can too but good tyres and skill can prevent that. But even cycling carefully across ice may not save you. Ice killed four cyclists recently when a car slid on ice.

If winter tyres generally provide more grip, that's great. If they sometimes with skill and depending on the ice might get you across the ice even better. But studs provide a near guarantee. Conditions do vary and tyres vary in their performance but ice IMV is still an absolute. And I for one would not welcome merely "a relatively modest improvement in grip".

It's your choice what you ride on and the level of risk you are prepared to take. When I hit the ice it was around midnight on a single track road and where a stream had run across the road. I had used the same tyres in snow before but this was a sheet of ice.

All I was asking is, do "winter" tyres grip the ice. You've made it clear in your response that they don't in an absolute sense. So thank you for that answer to my "silly" question.

[RickH]

My opinion having used Marathon Winters is that they are brilliant. They are a little slow on clear tarmac, but if you pump them up hard then you can minimise stud contact & noise (I reckon the noise is akin to riding on gravel). I've not noticed any detrimental effect on tarmac grip from the studs. I reckon the security of being able to keep riding safely in such conditions outweighs the slowness when conditions are borderline icy. As others have said be careful putting a foot down as there may be a lot less grip for it than you think.

My first test of them was persuasive I tried riding up a patch of slick wet ice (where field water can run onto the road in prolonged wet weather & then freeze/melt/freeze) on the steepest part of the hill near us - somewhere north of 20%. There was the tiniest bit of slip noticeable from the back wheel, but I've had far worse on steep wet tarmac.

The tread pattern on the Winters is deeper with bigger gaps & has the small channels (sipes? like winter cars tyres) that snow will stick in & provide some snow to snow grip. The "thumbnail test" on hardness of the rubber compound (both tyres stored in cool indoor conditions) was inconclusive.

Winter Marathon (lightly used) & Standard (well worn) Marathon, both 47mm (click to enlarge)

Of course you have to take into account the risk from other traffic. In my case I have either about a mile (or half a mile but with 250ft ascent coming home or descent if I'm going out) that doesn't get treated & has lightly traffic, often none when it snows & drifts. I try to avoid roads that are untreated but still with significant numbers of vehicles as much as I can.

When we last had significant snow - Easter 2013 - at least I could lift my bike over the drifts & get in & out in the 3 days or so before the council were persuaded to send out a JCB to dig the drifted snow out. It probably would have been at least a week before we would have been able to get cars through without that.

Rick.

[The fat commuter]

Winter compound tyres now on the bike (so expect a mild winter). Went for the Continental Top Contact Winter tyres. They look like big caterpillars at the moment as the extra bits of rubber from the mould are still on them. Could have done with having them on my bike on Wednesday as I cycled into Derbyshire and back in the morning. There were a few stretches where there was slushy ice across the road where the sun hadn't reached. One section I ended up walking down a steep hill. Not sure I'd try it even now but I reckon I'll have more grip on the untreated roads/paths on my commute to and from work.

This is what the tread looks like for anyone who's interested:


Note, these are non-studded winter tyres.

[mjr]

Please remember that you still need to be cautious about putting your tyres where the sun don't shine

[horizon]

CLARIFICATION

The last two posters both describe their tyres as "winter" tyres (Marathon Winters and Continental Winters). The first has studs. The second doesn't. For clarity's sake could we always say studded or non-studded? I'm not saying for sure there has been confusion on this thread but I suspect there might have been a little!

[ChrisButch]

Quite so. That did need saying.

[531colin]

AFAIK there's only one non-studded winter tyre out there the Conti Top Contact Winter II

There's also, at the other size extreme, the Michelin Pro4 Grip in x23 only. This, and the Top Contact Winter, still seem to be the only two with a tread compound optimised for cold conditions (as distinct from the various '4 season' tyres designed for a wider temperature range). Hence this topic being academic for all those (the majority?) who need tyres in any size between x23 and x37!

Measured my "37mm" top contact winter tyres to-day......just a shade under 32mm wide.

[ChrisButch]

The width may be a lot less than the nominal 37, but I gather they have quite a high profile, and that's the critical dimension under the mudguard pinch points at the fork crown or seatstay bridge. If you have the type of audax or 'winter training' frame built for deep-drop sidepulls and guards, I think these will be a struggle to fit unless the guards are removed, which rather cancels the point. With most of the frames I've had of this type I've found even fitting a normal 32 touring tyre is difficult, and even if you manage to get the wheel spinning at home the pinch points are so tight that they soon clog up with compacted mud.

[The fat commuter]

My (non-studded) Continental Top Contact Winter tyres would seem to either have a slightly smaller external diameter than the tyres that they replaced (continental contact 700 x 37) OR they are squishier. My normal ride home from work is 7.67 miles - bit more when the front tyre needs a bit more pressure. These winter tyres are pumped up and feel to have the same pressure when tested with my thumb - but now my ride home is 7.73 miles.

The front tyre does catch the underside of the mudguard but that is the little rubber sticks that are still on the tyre from when the tyre came out of the mould. I could take them off but I quite like the noise that they make as pedestrians can now hear me approaching.

The jury is still out as to whether the tyres have more rolling resistance - but initial thoughts are that they do. My two rides home from work since putting the tyres on have been two of my slowest so far.

[reohn2]

.......... Ice killed four cyclists recently when a car slid on ice..........

Where was that?

[horizon]

.......... Ice killed four cyclists recently when a car slid on ice..........

Where was that?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/4592412.stm

This was the terrible accident in (I realise now) 2006. It seemed much more recent. I mentioned it, perhaps erroneously, to draw attention to the fact that ice is unforgiving, although it was the car that skidded.

[MartinC]

Yes, part of the risk in riding ice and snow comes from the possibility of others losing control rather than you.