Shimergo Shadow
Shimergo Shadow
There are several good reasons for wanting to combine Shimano MTB shifting with Campagnolo Ergopowers and you can read about them here - or simply Google (and of course search this forum) for: Shimergo. The biggest reason however, is to get a lower gear than Signor Campagnolo considers fitting - in either sense of the word! And there's a very simple way of re-routing the cable on a Shimano mech so as to shift anything up to 34 teeth on a 9-speed mountain cassette with 10-speed Ergopowers. (It's not so simple since Shimano added a second turned-down tab to that little metal plate, but straighten out the frontal tab and that still works.)
It will not have escaped the notice of many that sprockets of up to 36 teeth are now available. So there's an even bigger and better reason for Shimergo - especially if you only have a 'compact double' (i.e. not-compact-enough) on the bike. However: to use sprockets that big one generally needs the 'Shadow' design of rear mech, and the cable fits on those in a totally different way. But looking at how it does fit and thinking about how the usual adaptation works, it has always seemed to me that it ought to be a reasonably simple matter to space the cable away from its usual anchorage by a similar proportion.
Finally I've gotten around to calculating how much more spacing might be needed, which I reckoned to be about 8mm. Then I carved a little lump of aluminium to do the spacing-out and fitted that plus the original cable clamp plate on an 8mm-longer bolt. And here's the result.
It's early days, but I've made a few test rides and the indexing is good, so the 8mm thickness of this spacer block seems to be correct. The other key dimensions are the notch that locates the corner of the block with a feature on the mech's arm, so it doesn't rotate, and a groove in the back of the block to locate the tab of the clamp-plate, so that doesn't rotate either. Here's a close-up of the block:
When I get around to it I'll make an proper dimensioned drawing of this little block and maybe someone will be kind enough to manufacture and sell them on Ebay.
It will not have escaped the notice of many that sprockets of up to 36 teeth are now available. So there's an even bigger and better reason for Shimergo - especially if you only have a 'compact double' (i.e. not-compact-enough) on the bike. However: to use sprockets that big one generally needs the 'Shadow' design of rear mech, and the cable fits on those in a totally different way. But looking at how it does fit and thinking about how the usual adaptation works, it has always seemed to me that it ought to be a reasonably simple matter to space the cable away from its usual anchorage by a similar proportion.
Finally I've gotten around to calculating how much more spacing might be needed, which I reckoned to be about 8mm. Then I carved a little lump of aluminium to do the spacing-out and fitted that plus the original cable clamp plate on an 8mm-longer bolt. And here's the result.
It's early days, but I've made a few test rides and the indexing is good, so the 8mm thickness of this spacer block seems to be correct. The other key dimensions are the notch that locates the corner of the block with a feature on the mech's arm, so it doesn't rotate, and a groove in the back of the block to locate the tab of the clamp-plate, so that doesn't rotate either. Here's a close-up of the block:
When I get around to it I'll make an proper dimensioned drawing of this little block and maybe someone will be kind enough to manufacture and sell them on Ebay.
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
Re: Shimergo Shadow
very nice!
I can't help but wonder if you could chop the top off of an old canti or V brake arm and make something like that; the groove and the hole and a cable clamp plate to fit would be there already; just a question of chopping the thing to the correct length (thickness) and then making the anti-rotation groove. A longer (M5?) bolt and the job is a good'un....?
cheers
I can't help but wonder if you could chop the top off of an old canti or V brake arm and make something like that; the groove and the hole and a cable clamp plate to fit would be there already; just a question of chopping the thing to the correct length (thickness) and then making the anti-rotation groove. A longer (M5?) bolt and the job is a good'un....?
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Shimergo Shadow
Just for the record ... The biggest sprocket on a Camapg 10 speed compatible cassette I have seen available is 34t, but you can also get 30 and 32. And you can also get Campagnolo 10 speed compatible cassettes that run on a Shimano freehub, thus allowing 10 speed Campagnolo drivetrains to work with 135OLD hubs equipped with Shimano-pattern freehubs.
I should coco.
Re: Shimergo Shadow
What Campag mechs will comfortably run a 34 tooth cassette? Campagnolo only officially goes up to 30 tooth in 10 speed and 29 tooth in 11 speed.
My current mech officially goes up to 27 tooth and is struggling with a 30 tooth cassette. It'll be replaced as it's also wearing out probably with an Athena triple mech to run 10 speed Shimano cassettes.
My current mech officially goes up to 27 tooth and is struggling with a 30 tooth cassette. It'll be replaced as it's also wearing out probably with an Athena triple mech to run 10 speed Shimano cassettes.
Re: Shimergo Shadow
bryce wrote:What Campag mechs will comfortably run a 34 tooth cassette?...
well, quite.
It used to be different to that, too. The campag rally used to take a bigger sprocket (36T, then later 32T) and even the short arm Mk1 Chorus mech would accept a 32T sprocket without any big dramas. They have been going backwards since then perhaps...?
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Shimergo Shadow
Brucey wrote:The campag rally used to take a bigger sprocket...
If you could ever get it to shift there without also throwing the chain in the spokes! The Campag Rally was one of the worst-shifting mechs ever made. Not until the 'Nice Vicenza Company' swallowed its pride and adopted SunTour's slant parallelogram (several years later than Shimano, who picked it up the minute SunTour's patent expired), did they make a mech where every downshift didn't require an overshift then back a bit procedure, which is always a bit dodgy when you get to bottom gear.
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
Re: Shimergo Shadow
CJ wrote:Brucey wrote:The campag rally used to take a bigger sprocket...
If you could ever get it to shift there without also throwing the chain in the spokes! The Campag Rally was one of the worst-shifting mechs ever made. Not until the 'Nice Vicenza Company' swallowed its pride and adopted SunTour's slant parallelogram (several years later than Shimano, who picked it up the minute SunTour's patent expired), did they make a mech where every downshift didn't require an overshift then back a bit procedure, which is always a bit dodgy when you get to bottom gear.
+1
I remember being so happy at the thought of a campag touring mech when I bought mine but that lasted until the first time I used it.
Re: Shimergo Shadow
oh I didn't say they were any good, just that they at least were trying, and had realised there was at least a need. And don't forget that back in the day, we had crummily shaped chains and sprocket teeth that didn't want to shift etc.
In point of fact if you were running a 36T sprocket back then it wasn't at all easy to find a setup that worked reliably; the sense of relief when you successfully engaged bottom gear was palpable...
Given that old campag race mechs (which used to be terrible) work x3 better on modern cogs/chains than vintage ones I wonder if the Rally models do too?
Campag had their own (slightly mad) ideas too; remember the CdA mech? And I thought the Mk1 Chorus mech was a neat idea too; with a view to 'one bike' functionality you could convert between a drop parallelogram to a slant one.
cheers
In point of fact if you were running a 36T sprocket back then it wasn't at all easy to find a setup that worked reliably; the sense of relief when you successfully engaged bottom gear was palpable...
Given that old campag race mechs (which used to be terrible) work x3 better on modern cogs/chains than vintage ones I wonder if the Rally models do too?
Campag had their own (slightly mad) ideas too; remember the CdA mech? And I thought the Mk1 Chorus mech was a neat idea too; with a view to 'one bike' functionality you could convert between a drop parallelogram to a slant one.
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Shimergo Shadow
It's interesting that IRD think campag 10 speed mechs will run upto 34 tooth sprockets and SJS also believe so enough to sell them. That's well over the official specs. If that does work well, and 11 speed works equivalently then there's plenty of flexibility for triple shimergo options.Campagnolo are the only ones with an 11 speed triple now. An 11 speed 11-32 or 12-29 combined with the right front chainset could provide plenty of range with nice close spacing.
My experience was with a current Tiagra 12-30 and a 9 speed Tiagra rear mech. It works but the b-screw doesn't allow enough adjustment, and the mech's worn out anyway.
How does SRAMs system work for alpine doubles? Doesn't it allow mixing of mountain and road parts even if it doesn't allow triples with road shifters?
An article in Cycle outlining the various options to obtain desired gearing these days would be great.
My experience was with a current Tiagra 12-30 and a 9 speed Tiagra rear mech. It works but the b-screw doesn't allow enough adjustment, and the mech's worn out anyway.
How does SRAMs system work for alpine doubles? Doesn't it allow mixing of mountain and road parts even if it doesn't allow triples with road shifters?
An article in Cycle outlining the various options to obtain desired gearing these days would be great.
Re: Shimergo Shadow
bryce wrote:It's interesting that IRD think campag 10 speed mechs will run upto 34 tooth sprockets and SJS also believe so enough to sell them. That's well over the official specs. If that does work well, and 11 speed works equivalently then there's plenty of flexibility for triple shimergo options.Campagnolo are the only ones with an 11 speed triple now. An 11 speed 11-32 or 12-29 combined with the right front chainset could provide plenty of range with nice close spacing.
I think you will get 34t working with older Campag 10 speed ... you might get it working with contemporary Campag 10 speed ... you probably won't get such a big sprocket working with Campag 11 speed because of the different mechanics of the rear derailleur.
I should coco.
Re: Shimergo Shadow
Valbrona wrote:bryce wrote:It's interesting that IRD think campag 10 speed mechs will run upto 34 tooth sprockets and SJS also believe so enough to sell them. That's well over the official specs. If that does work well, and 11 speed works equivalently then there's plenty of flexibility for triple shimergo options.Campagnolo are the only ones with an 11 speed triple now. An 11 speed 11-32 or 12-29 combined with the right front chainset could provide plenty of range with nice close spacing.
I think you will get 34t working with older Campag 10 speed ... you might get it working with contemporary Campag 10 speed ... you probably won't get such a big sprocket working with Campag 11 speed because of the different mechanics of the rear derailleur.
I think the chances are good too. At this end of the capacity range it'll depend more on the frame geometry than the mech so it'll be a case of suck it and see.
One of the big attractions of Shimergo is using a 135mm OLN hub so Shadow can give this and a 36 tooth sprocket. Hope hubs will allow you to have a Campag freewheel body on a 135mm hub.
Chris's block looks like an ideal candidate for 3D printing.
By the way I don't agree with the comments about old Campag mechs. In the pre index days I always liked them and preferred them to Shimano slant parallelogram mechs. I've never used one on a sprocket bigger than 24 and I can see that larger would be a challenge for any straight parallelogram mech. Shifting in pre index days required more human input and possibly more scope for individual preference.
Re: Shimergo Shadow
MartinC wrote: ...Chris's block looks like an ideal candidate for 3D printing.....
in plastic? I doubt it will survive the bolting loads.
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Shimergo Shadow
Valbrona wrote:Just for the record ... The biggest sprocket on a Camapg 10 speed compatible cassette I have seen available is 34t, but you can also get 30 and 32. And you can also get Campagnolo 10 speed compatible cassettes that run on a Shimano freehub, thus allowing 10 speed Campagnolo drivetrains to work with 135OLD hubs equipped with Shimano-pattern freehubs.
That would a tasty upgrade for me - currently
- Ergo levels 10-speed at the front, driving . . . .
- Shimano 8-speed cassette, XT- derailleur, XT-hub
Since I moved up to a 32 tooth cassette the gaps in the 8-speed do feel a little too gappy, despite an even spread.
I still have the Campag Racing Triple derailleur available.
Where to find the Campag 10-sp cassette(s) that run on the Shimano ( 8-sp) freehub ??
Re: Shimergo Shadow
the spacing of shimano 10s is a fraction smaller than campag 10s, and a shimano 10s cassette will fit your hubs OK. Some folk run campag mech and shifters on shimano 10s cassette with no worries, so it is worth a go like that.
If it doesn't work perfectly you still have two options;
1) add a few shims into the shimano cluster
2) easiest; make a very tiny tweak to the cable mounting on the rear mech (so that the mech throw per unit cable pull is reduced slightly).
cheers
If it doesn't work perfectly you still have two options;
1) add a few shims into the shimano cluster
2) easiest; make a very tiny tweak to the cable mounting on the rear mech (so that the mech throw per unit cable pull is reduced slightly).
cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Shimergo Shadow
Thanks Brucey.
In that setup I assume that the Campag rear derailleur would have to replace the Shimano one ??
In that setup I assume that the Campag rear derailleur would have to replace the Shimano one ??