Can you get...

[MartinC]

Thanks - interesting.

[Mick F]

Is it?

Is it interesting that I keep records?
I never used to, until I discovered spreadsheets and the ease of them for inputting facts. I keep a rides diary too so the mileages get inputted as well. Dunno why I store this info, but it takes no effort and I'm not loaded down with paperwork to keep it. It's all on a memory stick and I can call the facts forward to answer questions like this.

Is it interesting that it was the Miche cassette?
The spacing is the same as Campag cassettes, and the downtube levers worked well coupled to the 10sp Chorus rear mech. The lever went from full ahead to full astern to span the width of the cassette.

Is it interesting that it worked like a dream?
I found this fact amazing and unexpected. The gear changes were as sweet as a sweet thing, and so much sweeter that the old 6sp and 7sp Suntour Ultra the shifters were last used for. I think, though I'm not sure, that because the cassette was 10 cogs and not 6, the chain just glided up and down. I found I wasn't fussy about which particular cog I was on, just that I felt comfortable pedalling at the particular speed. With Ergos, you can count the clicks if you want, but with friction you just "glide" from one ratio to the next and you can see at which end of the cassette you are on by the position of the lever. The fact that it was a 10sp Miche and not 10sp Campag was besides the point.

Front changing was simple of course.

If I were to move over to 11sp - no plans to do this at all - I wouldn't go to the expense of buying 11sp Ergos. I'd sell my 10sp Chorus Ergos and use my old Campag Victory downtube levers plus a pair of good quality brake levers - maybe Record.

[Brucey]

.....Going properly retro with it would however require obtaining an ultra-6 freewheel and I'd prefer to use the newer wheels I've got with 8-speed since the original wheels have had it, even though it means cold setting the frame from 120mm to 130mm - it should take it; it springs out to that size quite easily but I'd prefer to cold set it properly.

IIRC 6s index systems were all standard spacing back in the day, with 126mm rear spacing. Ultra 6 had the same spacing as 7s, and won't work with 6s index systems without a tweak of some kind. If you have shimano parts there, they should have a date code on them somewhere, which may help you identify if they are original or not. Remember that a 6s lever will index a 5s 120mm rear end too, so someone may have set it up like that.

Had to obtain some proper enclosed cam skewers as well - the horizontal dropouts mean the puny standard external cam things you get standard can't clamp it hard enough. Not when I was testing it uphill anyway.

yup, too right. I have discovered that external cam skewers often simply 'relax' over time. If you use them on hubs with properly set cup and cone bearings (with a little play in them that just disappears when the QR is tightened) you can be fooled into thinking your hubs are wearing or something, whereas it is in fact just the QR easing off by itself.

cheers

[karlt]

Interestingly I've found a scan of the original catalogue here: http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=225814

Does say indexed, does say 6 - so what do I make of the OLN being apparently 120mm? Perhaps poor measurement? Or has someone put a 120mm wheel in it and effectively cold set it narrower? It'd be easy enough with a bolt on wheel with over-width axle. But why is the gear lever non-indexed? I wonder if there were some changes made to the model during its lifespan.

On the lookout for a set of decals as the ones on it are quite badly scratched off in places. Anyone know where I might lay my hands on them?

[MartinC]

......................Is it interesting that it was the Miche cassette?.......................

Yes, it means that the other changes to jockey wheel float, chain plates and sprocket profilng make it work well even if the sprockets aren't timed (which means it's a shame that they are 'cos if they weren't then we'd have a freer hand in customising cassettes, assuming that misplaced timed sprockets are worse than untimed spockets).

[Mick F]

Mis-timed?
I reckon they were.

The basic full Miche cassette you can buy are timed as per the whole cassette.

I bought a non-standard cassette in as much as I picked my own ratios, and not the ratios on offer as a full set. This meant that some timing lined up and some didn't and some was way out. It shifted quite well with my Ergos considering the mis-timing though not perfectly. I think that Miche individual sprockets are really there to replace worn ones in a cassette, not to build your own out of the bits like I did. What I designed and built wasn't on offer from anyone as a complete unit.

From what I feel, I reckon that timing or no timing or bad timing won't make much difference to friction shifting because you naturally "overshift-and-correct" as you go. Indexed shifting is a completely different thing.

[Brucey]

whether it is an indexed system or not, I think a good system is one that shifts consistently. When I have assembled cassettes as a mixed bag, the shifts are not quite consistent, which is a little bit irritating.

BTW way back when, I noticed that on windy days I wouldn't always hear the chain chattering if the friction lever was slightly out, and in a tight bunch it didn't seem like a good idea to be squinting at the freewheel to check.

For a while I experimented with little marks on the gear lever support so that I knew where the right position was for each gear. I don't know if anyone else had the same idea or not.

cheers

[MartinC]

Mis-timed?
...................The basic full Miche cassette you can buy are timed as per the whole cassette................

My recollection is that Miche sprockets are profiled but don't have escape ramps on on sprocket that line up with pick up teeth on the adjacent sprocket so they don't have a particular position in a cassette.

[Mick F]

You may be right in that Martin, I have no experience of them. I expected that the ramps and truncated teeth would line up properly in spiral in a "standard" cassette. I do know that the ramps and teeth were in different positions on different sprockets. Remember, they can only go on in one way, so you cannot align them as you build.

I therefore expected that if you picked the "correct" sprockets, they would line up properly.

For the record, I had:
12 - 13 - 14 - 15 - 16 - 18 - 20 - 22 - 25 - 29



The Miche Primato 10sp complete cassette is only available as:
12 - 13 - 15 - 17 - 19 - 21 - 23 - 25 - 27 - 29
There's far too large a gap between 13 and 15. Where's the 14?