REAR oln measurements?

[recordacefromnew]

Rear stays were bolted securely and it's the hangers that are bent. Trying to contact couriers now

It is impossible to tell from the photo how the axle/cones/locknuts were used now, but if correctly i.e. like a hub keeping the distance between dropouts of 130mm fixed then it is impossible for the stays to have been squished to 100mm OLN without the axle coming off or getting bent. Indeed if the axle was in place correct and intact (and obviously not bent) then stays being squished during transit should in fact cause them to spring further open when the axle is released. I guess what I am saying is that if the axle was in place correctly main damage was probably done before transit; unless of course if there were signs that the package was opened before you received it then all bets are off.

If the frame was sent by the seller (rather than picked up by a courier commissioned by you) there is no point for you to talk to the courier - they don't have a contract with you, or liability to you, or insurance if any for your benefit. The seller would have to deal with them.

[531colin]

............ if correctly i.e. like a hub keeping the distance between dropouts of 130mm fixed then it is impossible for the stays to have been squished to 100mm OLN without the axle coming off or getting bent. Indeed if the axle was in place correct and intact (and obviously not bent) then stays being squished during transit should in fact cause them to spring further open when the axle is released...........

Unless the stays took a set at the bridges, and simply flexed mid-stay.......

[recordacefromnew]

Unless the stays took a set at the bridges, and simply flexed mid-stay.......

I guess it is possible, except I would have thought stays are dimensioned and cross-sectioned to do the opposite? While the stays may not be 853, I believe 853 air hardens, and as a result it has the somewhat unique feature of being strongest around the joints?

[Trigger]

Did the bolt holding the stays just drop out when removed or was it a tight fit? My instinct tells me it was sold this way and the seller put in a 130mm axle to hold it open.

[531colin]

Unless the stays took a set at the bridges, and simply flexed mid-stay.......

I guess it is possible, except I would have thought stays are dimensioned and cross-sectioned to do the opposite? While the stays may not be 853, I believe 853 air hardens, and as a result it has the somewhat unique feature of being strongest around the joints?

I'm not looking for an argument here....all I'm saying is that we know nothing about what has happened.....we don't know the real condition of the frame when packed, we don't know if the bolt/axle/whatever was holding the dropouts a fixed distance apart, let alone what that distance was, we don't know if the stays are or are not 853, we don't know of any signs of damage to the packaging. We can only guess about the handling of the package.
I was at one time used to writing reports. If a statement in a report was liable to be contentious, we were encouraged to apply the test....."would I be comfortable to defend this opinion in a court of law?"

[kenster]

the rear was secured tightly however it want 130mm and when union hardly moved at all.the frame is entirely 853 tubing.
Yes it appears that primarily the ends are bent in not the rear stays themselves. The thing I don't understand is although the rear was secured and fixed when I received it, it wasn't 130mm.
All I know is it should be 130mm but is a smudge over 100mm and the rear hangers (where the rear mech and off side wheel fix) they aren't straight.which I assume between them amasses to 30mm

[531colin]

The outer faces of the cones in kensters picture don't look to be much different to 100mm apart

[kenster]

Colin not 100% on what the cones are? Could you explain for me please? Cheers Jon

[531colin]

Colin not 100% on what the cones are? Could you explain for me please? Cheers Jon

On each end of the axle, starting from the end, you have....
A nut with a flange/washer thing attached, this is a "track nut" and in normal use it goes outside the frames dropout to secure the wheel.
A plain nut, this is to lock the cone adjustment (bearing preload). In normal use, this is inside the dropout.
The other thing is the cone, this is part of the wheel bearing. The outside has spanner flats for adjustment, there is a flat, round dust shield and then a more or less conical part which shows tracks where the bearings used to run when the axle was in use.

[kenster]

So your saying the nuts used to secure the rear stays were never 130mm apart to begin with?

[531colin]

So your saying the nuts used to secure the rear stays were never 130mm apart to begin with?

Well, if I had to defend anything I write in a court of law, I would have to write that I was not present when the frame was either packed or unpacked, so I don't know whether the dropouts were secured between the cones and the locknuts, or between the locknuts and the tracknuts, or both sides were done differently, or none of the above. I also don't know which of the cones and various nuts have been moved, and how far, between unpacking the frame and taking the photograph.

However, if the cones were snug against the inside faces of the dropouts when you unpacked it, and if you have not moved the cones significantly, then the inside faces of the dropouts were not much different to 100mm apart when you unpacked it, and its hard to imagine that it could have been very different when it was packed.

[bleep]

I worked for one of these big box mover couriers a few years back. If they have damaged it in transit they will likely have opened the package to make it look as much as possible the opposite. If you haven't inspected the package on arrival then its deniability all the way from there on in.

Two things to consider:

1. Did you sign for the package personally, if so, and you were given ample opportunity to inspect the package and its contents then they can literally walk away from any problems discovered post the signing. Signing for a package is know as 'Completion' in the trade, and its basically your last chance to inspect the contents (and complain) before the contract is complete.

2. Have you paid the extra to insure the package to its full value? Usually costs about a tenner on top. This is about the only guarantee of getting any money back at all. Normal compensation, without this type of insurance is usually only £46 with Royal Mail and as low as £15 with most courier services.

This is pretty much a caveat emptor: unless you pay to have the item insured in transit to its full value, (which is the only sensible thing to do with high value items) then you're pretty much whistling in the dark for ANY compensation claim against the courier. They will do ANYTHING not to part with any money. Sorry its not better news

[bleep]

Just an observation, but there doesn't seem to be any crush damage to the stays, are you really SURE its only 100mm? Have you tried a wheel in it?
30mm crush would have made more damage to the drop outs I would have though?

The only solution I can think of is trying to get it cold set at your local bike shop. Steel is very easy to set (most new frames are cold set before you get them) but you can only do this process a maximum of two or three times before it affects the mechanical integrity of the frame. I have a 1994 Dawes cold set from 120mm to 135mm to take an LX hub and its still A-OK twenty years later.

[kenster]

I have spoken more (over the phone) to lbs. A with Colin and many others on here and retro bike suggest it was as is when posted and was never sent at 130mm.it's curently been looked at internally by r.b. Bleep 100%100mm see the pics, hopefully it'll most likely be reset however there's always risks with this and it should more internally ever been like this.i know this if i had sods a frame and something had gone woo i would be doing my utmost to put it right. Not quite what's going on

[bleep]

The seller is at the mercy of the Courier company, I worked as a credit controller and in my company they used to boast they only paid out 1 in every 700 claims.

This looks like a steam and shut job to me. Most couriers will have someone dedicated to this task full time. Basically, when they realise they have properly damaged something they take it out of the box (probably screwing back in the spindle which will have popped out under 2-3 tonnes of forklift), steamed the box to reshape it and then retaped the whole thing back together again.

If you don't have full insurance then they will likely walk away from any claim as they have deniability built into their contracts from end to end.

I very much doubt a proven, experienced seller would lump you with a damaged frame.
Couriers are notoriously sneaky when it comes to damage they have caused, what I'm saying to anyone who posts something of value: Always pay extra to be fully insured. That way it's only a matter of making a claim to the insurers who invariably pay out without quibble.