More on saddles @michael42

[LittleGreyCat]

Quite a while back there was thread drift in a topic which ended up discussing saddles, and pain in the bum bones after an hour's riding.

{michael42} was struggling to work out if a new saddle would cure the problem, and if so which saddle.

At the time I recommended a Madison G11 Gel comfort saddle which I have had long term on my steel framed mountain bike which is set up for road use with fat slicks.

I was intending to get this bike back on the road after replacing some bits, but this hasn't happened yet.

I also have the use of a Scott mountain bike with front suspension, road tyres, and the original Scott saddle.
This crippled me with bum bone pain within the hour when I took it out for a ride.

Last week I recognised the futility of waiting for me to fix up my bikes and swapped the Madison G11 onto the Scott.
The scientifically minded will recognise the start of a useful test - known good saddle on known bum breaker.

Replacing the saddle in exactly the same position on the seat post resulted in quite a lot of bum pain before the hour mark.
Which suggests that it wasn't just the saddle to blame for the original problem.

So then I started adjusting the saddle.
I moved it back along the rails and this seemed to make me both lower down and the saddle more nose up.

I raised the saddle - some improvement.
I lowered the nose of the saddle - more improvement as there was a bit more weight on my legs and a bit less weight on the saddle.
As I rode I gradually felt I was too low, and progressively raised the saddle.
Now I am cycling so my bum bones (the painful area) are more or less on the wide area of the saddle and I can shift fore and aft a bit to vary the pressure.

I am still getting some pain after the one hour mark but it is a lot less, and a short break seems to clear it for a while, as does a change in cadence now and then.
Still uncomfortable over bumps after 90 minutes, though.
This doesn't look too good if I am aiming to go out on CTC Sunday rides.

So what else to change?

I am riding on what I guess are hybrid tyres - about the width of road tyres but with knobbles on the sides.
My long term more comfortable bike has fat slicks designed to go on MTB rims for road use.
I think these probably give a much more forgiving ride.

So firstly I should get my old trusty steed back on the road to confirm that I can still ride for a couple of hours without undue pain.

Probably should do a bit of measuring as well to see what differences (if any) I can find between the setups.

I should also get the Dawes Galaxy back on the road as a far more appropriate steed for Sunday rides.

I don't think I am dedicated enough to put the old Scott saddle back on the Scott to see if I can reduce the pain by adjusting the saddle.

If I keep up the 90 minute rides, of course, I could acclimatise over a few weeks and the pain could just go away. I am not confident about this, though.

So the - what do they call them? - take aways from all this?

Changing the saddle can improve things but it looks as though the saddle isn't everything.

Subject to testing it could be that wider, softer tyres can reduce bum pain.

However if you try all this and fail there is still the possibility that your current frame just doesn't suit your body.

Still, cheaper to swap saddles and tyres than to replace the frame.

Oh, one final note.
I am currently using some Lidl/Aldi (can't remember which) longs with a synthetic pad in which is nothing like the synthetic chamois I am used to in more tradition cycling shorts.
They are brilliant at keeping legs warm in the chill breezes we have at the moment.
It is always possible that these are not providing as much protection to my nether regions as my old shorts.
Further testing when the weather is warmer and I've hardened up a bit.

Cheers

LGC

[horizon]

I am still getting some pain after the one hour mark but it is a lot less, and a short break seems to clear it for a while, as does a change in cadence now and then.
Still uncomfortable over bumps after 90 minutes, though.
This doesn't look too good if I am aiming to go out on CTC Sunday rides.

lgc: obviously you've been trying lots of things out all of which may have helped in their own way. However I believe that we are missing four crucial bits of information:

When did you start riding a bike?
When did you return to cycling if you did?
How often do you cycle?
How long for each time?

Everyone is different and I am no doctor. But generally the human body will allow most people to adapt reasonably comfortably to a saddle, much as we do to walking boots, some more quickly than others.

But most people don't want to adapt - they want a solution so that they can go from no riding to several hours riding all in one weekend. They don't half keep the saddle makers in business!

My advice would be: ride every day but only while it doesn't hurt. Ride again later in the day, say for half an hour. Use your bike as much as you can but only for short trips. Gradually build up. Carry on with all your adjustments but adapt slowly. It is really very simple and there is IMV no magic solution.

[LittleGreyCat]

One clue is in the text

Last week I recognised the futility of waiting for me to fix up my bikes and swapped the Madison G11 onto the Scott.
The scientifically minded will recognise the start of a useful test - known good saddle on known bum breaker.

So I started my fitness campaign last week and have done three circuits of my 20 mile route so far.
Prior to that I recently had a couple of runs out on the Scott (which confirmed bum pain problems) and a run out on the Rover 3.5 which confirmed I needed to sort the drive train out and a short run on my Dawes Galaxy which ended with a broken chain and a decision to renovate the drive train.

I first started cycling pre-teens.
Cycled a lot up until about 17 including days out over quiet country roads with my mates.
Did some fairly long commutes in around '75 in Derbyshire on a friend's road bike.
Bought my Rover 3.5 around '94 and commuted a lot over 9.6 miles each way and also trained up for and did the London to Brighton.
I generally could cycle for 2 hours without any problems regardless of my frequency of cycling and general fitness level.

Trained up for a 22 mile commute in Berkshire in '07/'08 and managed a few times but the length of the commute meant I didn't do it often.
Again using my trusty Rover 3.5 with the Madison Gel saddle.
Again no major bum bone problems.

Since '09 I have been out a few times in the summer for a two hour pootle on the Rover 3.5 with no major bum pain.

So my expectation this time was to be able to cycle for a couple of hours and run out of wind/legs by the end but not be saddle sore.

My suspicion is that there is something about this lightweight aluminium bike with thin tyres which is making it a much harsher ride than my heavier steel bike with fat tyres and thus pounding my poor bum into submission.

The only way to really check is to get my Univega Rover 3.5 back in good condition and to do some comparison rides.

Cheers

LGC

[horizon]

My impression is from reading posts over the years that people get saddle sore long before they run out of puff. That's not on a steep hill, obviously, but from say a couple of hours continuous cycling. I've never cycled on really narrow tyres (32 mm is my limit) but I would quite happily agree that they don't help. I reckon that on the other tyres and with a bit more cycling you should be OK. But do let us know - we often don't get to hear how these things work out and it's not exactly unimportant (except for recumbent riders!). Good luck in any case.

[LollyKat]

My suspicion is that there is something about this lightweight aluminium bike with thin tyres which is making it a much harsher ride than my heavier steel bike with fat tyres and thus pounding my poor bum into submission.
LGC

That is quite possible. Maybe you need to alter your riding/sitting style a bit? Such as ease off the saddle altogether when going over particularly rough surfaces.

[LittleGreyCat]

My impression is from reading posts over the years that people get saddle sore long before they run out of puff. That's not on a steep hill, obviously, but from say a couple of hours continuous cycling. <snip>

Please bear in mind that I am trying to build fitness, and quite quickly, so I am constantly pushing for a maximum sustainable cruising speed.
That is, high cadence but below spinning out.
If I feel that I am spinning too easily I go up a gear.
If I am starting to have to push hard and my cadence is dropping then I change down a gear.
This keeps me breathing deeply but not gasping/crying for air, and my legs complaining a bit but not desperately.
The aim is to have used up all my energy reserves by the end of the run - if I've got loads of 'go' left in the last couple of miles then I just have to push harder.
I do wind down in the last little bit, though

As you say, hills are different.
My aim there is to get to the top without going down into the 'granny', which tends to get me working as hard as my body will take for a few minutes.
Been one gear off the 'granny' a few times.
The hills around here are water cut dips in a flat plain, so short but pretty steep.
Fast going down but hard going up the other side.

If I was cycling gently I would expect to go for a couple of hours and still have plenty of puff left.
I might try a longer gentler ride some time to see if it is the cadence which is causing some of the pain.
For context, I tend to sail past leisure cyclists out for a gentle cruise on MTBs but get comprehensively blown away by more active cyclists in all the gear on road bikes.
[Although on my last ride a very nice guy sailed past me, and when I asked if he had a tow rope he dropped back and chatted for a while before our routes diverged and he flew away again. He said he was cycling round looking for hills to sprint up. Made my day Gentleman of the road.]

I should perhaps restate that my aim is not to modify my long term riding style.
I am taking the opportunity (prompted by a previous conversation) to investigate the correlation between saddles and bum pain on different bikes.
My starting point is a bike/saddle combination which I know from long experience is comfortable for me on brisk rides of two hours or more even when I haven't ridden for some time.

My finding so far is that the bike I am testing is causing me more discomfort than I would expect if the saddle was the only factor in bum pain.

My comfort saddle seems better than the original set up and the discomfort has been reduced by various saddle adjustments but I still feel that this particular loan bike is less comfortable than my own.

To fully confirm this I need to get my long term bike back on the road.

Meanwhile I will continue to use my only roadworthy bike on the principle that a ride with some pain after the hour mark is better than no ride or a shorter ride.

Cheers

LGC

* Quick postscript - just been out for about two hours, usual route plus a diversion, wearing my old cycling shorts with the real imitation chamois. It may be my imagination but this seemed a lot less painful. Then again I could just be hardening up. *

[Trigger]

There's more to saddles than just bum pain. Some people struggle with perineum pressure on traditional saddles, I went through the whole breaking in the bum routine but once that was done and bum pain was minimal I was still left with numbness from the front half of the saddle pushing up and cutting off circulation. I had a Brooks at the time and some of the pictures of them set up on other bikes made my eyes water, a lot of them were nose up!

I tried moving the saddle around but the only way to alleviate it was to considerably 'nose down' the saddle, unfortunately this was literally tipping me onto the bars and wasn't comfortable for anything over a couple of miles.

This is why we have saddles with perineum gaps and the like, I currently use a Spesh BG but even with that I can get some numbness on really long rides, I'm tempted to try one of the Selle SMP saddles as they look brilliant and get great reviews from others who suffer like I do.

For bum pain I don't think padded saddles are any sort of miracle cure, yes a small amount of padding so that you aren't sat on a hard shell is good, but the big stuff that look like armchairs are just pointless IMO.

[swscotland bentrider]

About five years ago I switched to using a recumbent bike for most touring needs. Nevertheless I still use my conventional tourer on some tours. The problem was that my saddle (B17) became too uncomfortable. I just wasn't riding enough to stay 'toughened up'. So in a moment of madness I ordered a Brooks B67 in the Spa sale. What a difference. Amazing comfort for a conventional bike! I'm not necessarily recommending it for sport riding - it suits a more upright riding posture. However it seems to me that a combination of width and shock absorbtion is what makes it comfortable. Last weekend I did 100 + miles over two days in comfort despite not having used my bike in anger since last September. Possible consider a wider saddle with wider lower pressure tyres?

[Dave W]

My wife could only get comfy with the smp.

I've not found tyre width to have any bearing on bum pain whatsoever but small adjustments in tilt do. I previously swore by Specialized minimalist saddles at £100 a go until I realised my sit bones were still aching on a long run. My favourite saddle is the cheap as chips Charge Spoon - I have one on all three bikes now. Nothing particularly clever about the design - it just seems to suit me.

[LittleGreyCat]

Just an update to say I still haven't really worked out what is going on.

I can now cycle further before the pain sets in, about 2 hours, but by the end I am still suffering.

Some things I have noted:

towards the end of the ride I seem to be shifting further back in the saddle although the saddle seems in the right place for most of the ride

the pain may at least in part be muscle tiredness because other muscles are also aching - just not nearly as much

I have noted that bumps hurt a lot more at the end of the ride, and I think this is because my legs are tired and are not cushioning me by taking some of my body weight as I pedal, as they do near the start of the ride

I think the padded saddle is helping, though - I wouldn't like to be using a rock hard saddle when my legs and bum are starting to complain.

So far I think a 'comfort' saddle is probably an aid to comfortable riding but this is just one of many factors interworking to give a comfortable long distance set up.

Cheers

LGC

P.S. forgot to mention that I am about a stone lighter than when I was last cycling regularly and at least some of the weight has gone from my rear end padding. This could mean that I really need a 'comfort bum', not a comfort saddle.

[bgnukem]

I find some saddles are too wide across the back which causes me to ride further forward on the narrower part of the saddle which means I cannot get my sit bones on the two wings are the back of the saddle.

Regardless of other factors in saddle design, I think it's particularly important to ensure the width of the saddle is such that sitbone separation matches the distance between the two pads or wings at the back of the saddle.

It's easy to measure sit-bone separation by sitting on a piece of corrugated cardboard and measuring the separation of the flattened areas of the corrugations.

I find the Charge Spoon saddle fits me well (narrow, bony butt), but the padding it a little hard and thin which makes it uncomfortable after about 40 miles. I've just bought a Charge Pan as this is supposed to be a similar shape to the Spoon but with added padding. However, it looks wider to me.

The advantage of the Charge saddles is that they are relatively cheap so it does not break the bank to try some different ones.

[LittleGreyCat]

Quick update - I've adjusted the saddle yet again, in fact I wish there was a quick release for the saddle to make it easier to re-align.

I've moved it even further back, tilted the nose down a bit more, and had to raise it a bit to get back to a sensible feeling position.

I can now cycle for 35k without the dreaded pain in the bum, but my quads are complaining.

I think I have managed to position myself so more weight is on my legs and less on my bum.

It will probably take a few rides to decide if this is a bonus or if I have to tilt the saddle back a bit to allow me to take some weight off my legs on longer rides.

Anyway, looks as though saddle position is crucial although I am sure the padding is helping a lot.

Cheers

LGC

[michael42]

Well FWIW, I've had a slightly better experience in the warmer weather.
I cycled every day in April bar 4 rest days, did about 900km. May has had more rest days but I've upped the length of the typical ride I do.

What I do note though is that the padding in the aldi "longs" digs into the sore I'd developed (possibly caused it?) and this got to 'can barely cycle / feels like someone is jabbing something sharp into your delicate areas' levels of pain - especially if you go over a bit of rough road.

When the warmer weather arrived and I switched to my DHB aeron race shorts they were better. I can still feel that I have a sore, but it isn't being noticeably antagonised when cycling to the point where I can't sit down or pedal.

I sometimes find myself sat on the nose and get a bit of discomfort from that, but I tend to adjust my seating position now, i.e I kind of stand up on the pedals, arch my back to stretch it out a bit and then sit further back - and that spot on the saddle noticeably feels like the right spot to sit.

That does make me wonder if the saddle could go forward a touch although I'm loath to keep moving things around. I've moved my cleats back and then got back pain, so moved them forward again in 2 steps. Albeit perhaps not as quite far forward as they were originally (hence why I would stress making the tiniest mm changes and testing to avoid going from one bad place to another) The saddle has been at all extremes up/down and fore/aft and everything inbetween.

Now it doesn't feel too bad. I think the bike is arguably a size smaller than I could use. The handlebars seem a bit low and there's no adjustment there. I can't help thinking a road bike seating position would help - I often find myself trying to tuck down out of the wind (either real wind or wind I'm creating at around 20mph) and the bike feels a bit cramped for that.

The other thing about the warm weather is I can cycle a bit faster. So I've been tending to do rides again where I do the whole ride at 100-110 cadence (unless I'm on a gradient where I can't pedal the lowest gear that fast) and taking gels and 2:1 to drink even if it's a relatively shorter ride. So if I start to flag I can take a gel and push on. I think this keeps more weight on the pedals and off the saddle. If I coast (rare) I tend to balance slightly off the saddle.

Forward/back/up/down, these affect your pedalling but I don't think they will make the saddle more comfortable in itself - and you wind up making things worse elsewhere, like knee or back issues.

Of course, if your saddle is in the wrong place and you compensate for that by, say, sitting on the nose to pedal - a habit I certainly have, then sure, moving the saddle may make you sit in a better position on the saddle which may feel more comfortable. think you make a mistake though trying to adjust the fit to make the saddle comfortable. Except perhaps a small adjustment some people do to the angle of the nose of the saddle (I set mine perfectly level, using a spirit level) there is, I believe, the fact that you're sitting on the saddle correctly or not - and if you are, then it'll either feel comfortable or it won't. Moving it around won't really change that.

My saddle is wearing out though so it's due a replacement. Which is a bit ironic because I'm reasonably happy with it at the moment and don't really want to buy something that gives problems again. I've decided to just get a charge spoon. Cheap, available from quite a few online places and plenty seem to think they are comfortable.

[LittleGreyCat]

Another update

I have finally got my Univega Rover 3.5 back on the road and moved the Madison saddle back to it.
[See posts about chains and dérailleurs.]

It has taken a bit of tinkering but I think I have got the saddle back in more or less the original position.

What a difference!
I realise now that the geometry of the two bikes is completely different.
My no-suspension (hard tail and nose?) steel bike with fat tyres is a lot more pleasant to ride.
The aluminium Scott has a much more angled seat tube which means the saddle is a lot further back behind the bottom bracket.
This explains why it felt weird standing up on the pedals to get a fast start away from the traffic lights - nowhere near the normal riding position.
On the Univega I can rise a bit in the saddle and be standing up on the pedals - seamless transition.
I suppose this is the difference between an old '90s steel mountain bike and a modern aluminium one.

Anyway my riding position is obviously different and I find it much more comfortable.
So in my case it was mainly the frame, although I still rate the particular saddle very highly.

I think I am going a bit faster as well - although the Scott spedo is in kph and the Univega spedo is in mph.

Cheers

LGC

[LittleGreyCat]

Just having a fit of nostalgia and looking at old posts.

A late start to summer cycling this year (I blame the weather) and I am suffering some of the pain symptoms I described earlier.
Not as bad as I recall, but still some pain in the area where the bum finishes and the thighs start.
Bike is unchanged, saddle is unchanged, position is unchanged. So the blame does not lie there.

The answer can be obtained from looking up Rule #5 of the Velominati.

I also confess to even less #5 - I've just ordered some mudguards for my trusty mountain bike with road tyres because I keep getting covered in mud and the number of times I go off road in seriously deep mud - enough to clog mud up between the tyres and the mudguards - can be counted on a thing that can't count past 0.