Do we now have too many gears ?

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kwackers
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by kwackers »

Mick F wrote:Yes,
but we're taking maths aren't we?
Gears and gear-inches?
Ratios?
Discussing the size of the gearing compared to another size?
Gain?
Loss?

Not really. You're talking percentages but changing the meaning of them based on the context of your sentence. As I pointed out above 100% can have two meanings based on how you phrase it.
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Mick F
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by Mick F »

OK.
I give in, but I don't agree.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=78276
Mick F. Cornwall
kwackers
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by kwackers »

Mick F wrote:OK.
I give in, but I don't agree.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=78276

I don't understand the problem.

I'm 100% stronger than you. (I'm twice as strong).
I'm 100% as strong as you. (I'm as strong).

It's all in the grammar... :wink:
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bigjim
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by bigjim »

I got very lucky last year and picked up a 1985 Raleigh Royal that was virtually unused. As new. It has a 5 peed block and a 50/36 double complete with DT shifters. I actually bid on it for the frame. It was only when it was delivered I saw that it was an unused perfect bike.
Now I was in a quandry. What a shame to dismantle this lovley tourer. So I rode it as is. I take it on my usually mixed terrain 25mile local circuit. A circuit that I ride on other multi geared bikes.
The Royal rides superbly and I don't find any problem using the old fashioned gearing. In some respects I find it nicer. I rarely move away from the 36 inner ring and as there are only 5 gears at the back I rarely change gear. The lowest rear cog is a 32 which I never use.
I don't find any disadvantage over my other multi geared bikes. I imagine my legs take care of the cadence thing and sometimes wonder if it is better that way as your muscles/lungs are much of your gearing and get a better workout.
I also like the look of the rear wheel with only those five speeds and all that space between the chain on the smallest cog and the rear dropout.
If I had no other bike, I would probably be quite happy using this, or something like for everything. Much as we did in our youth.
If you had only driven and still only drove a Morris Minor would you be unhappier than the guy in the new Fiesta? :)
kwackers
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by kwackers »

bigjim wrote:If you had only driven and still only drove a Morris Minor would you be unhappier than the guy in the new Fiesta? :)

Yes.

I've driven a moggie minor recently and had trouble keeping up with an old guy on a butchers bicycle.
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bigjim
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by bigjim »

kwackers wrote:
bigjim wrote:If you had only driven and still only drove a Morris Minor would you be unhappier than the guy in the new Fiesta? :)

Yes.

I've driven a moggie minor recently and had trouble keeping up with an old guy on a butchers bicycle.


You are allowed to move out of first gear you know. :)
If you were in a UK urban environement you would probably moving no quicker than the butchers bike even if you were in a Ferrari.
I've driven a moggie minor recently

Which means that you have driven other more modern cars. My point was if you had never driven anything newer/better and therefore were none the wiser.
Were we happy enough with our old mobile phone until we saw and experienced a smartphone?
bgnukem
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by bgnukem »

IMO 10 and 11-speed kit is just a way for manufacturers to sell more equipment.

The wearing parts (chain, cassette, chainrings) are less durable and wear out faster than 7-9speed kit and cost more to replace.

They are harder to set up because shifting tolerances are smaller, and give more extreme chainlines and more wheel dish, weakening the rear wheel.

The extra ratios are immaterial for most non-racers.

It's just a marketing scam.
beardy
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by beardy »

You draw the line between "marketing scam" and a useful number of ratios between 9 and 10 speed.

I think it would be better drawn between 8 and 9. Then some one else may say between 7 and 8.
This can go on until the Fixed Wheel Brigade win the debate as beyond that you are walking. :lol:
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mjr
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by mjr »

beardy wrote:I think it would be better drawn between 8 and 9. Then some one else may say between 7 and 8.
This can go on until the Fixed Wheel Brigade win the debate as beyond that you are walking. :lol:

I think 6/7/8 and some 5 speed chains and cogs are the same width, so can we probably gang up and outnumber the 3-speeders and Fixed Wheelers? ;-)
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Sum
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by Sum »

Some sprocket thicknesses here: http://sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.shtml#k7fw

(For Shimano at least) you could lump the sprocket thicknesses into three gangs of 5/ 6 speeds (2mm), 7(HG)/8/9 speeds (~1.8mm), and the 10 speed (1.6mm). I vaguely recall someone postulating on here that the material S uses to make the sprockets out of has changed over the years, with modern materials being less harder wearing.
Last edited by Sum on 11 Apr 2014, 8:12am, edited 1 time in total.
reohn2
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by reohn2 »

8,9&10sp hubs are the same so the dishing is the same.
I don't know about 11sp and care even less.
Anything beyond 9sp is useless to me,especially as I use triple chainsets exclusively and so have more usable gears than any 10or11sp double,seeing as the big three seem to be heading more for compact and alpine doubles I can't say I'm fussed about have anything different than I already have really unless I'm forced to by the relentless march of fashion.
Last edited by reohn2 on 11 Apr 2014, 8:23am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ayesha
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by Ayesha »

The difference between a motorcar engine and a cyclist is a motorcar engine has a torque curve, which is governed by the camshaft profile.
An engine can be tuned to give most torque at the low end, a ‘stump puller’, or at the high end, a ‘howler’.
A ‘Power curve’ is produced.

A cyclist can apply equal torque all the way up the rev range until it is physically impossible to move the legs fast enough. A straight inclined ‘Power curve’ is produced until it tails off at high speed.

The reason why cars have gears is to either maintain high power application at all road speeds, or maintain maximum efficiency at selected test roller speeds.

The reason why a bicycle has gears is because all cyclists, being biological, have different muscular construction of slow and fast twitch fibre type, and operate most effectively at a specific rev band.

No cyclist can suggest to another what cadence they should be using, as one cyclist is not the same as another cyclist.

A mass production bicycle has a wide range of gears to accommodate most of the variability amongst different cyclists.

A custom made bicycle will have a selection of gears which are chosen to suit the individual.

( Sometimes, the two are the same :wink: )

The gear ratios on a road car are selected depending on the max efficiency engine speed dictated by the camshaft.

The gear ratios on a custom built bicycle are selected depending on either the experience of the rider or testing.
Brucey
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by Brucey »

Sum wrote: I vaguely recall someone postulating on here that the material S uses to make the sprockets out of has changed over the years, with modern materials being less harder wearing.


I have postulated that and I'm sure I'm not alone. One reason I have said this is that the steels used will have one common feature; they won't cost much. In such steels you can trade hardness against ductility at a similar cost.

UG cogs would occasionally suffer broken teeth but I've not seen the same thing in HG cogs. I've seen a fair few bent/deformed HG teeth, but I've not seen bent UG teeth in the same way. So I'd say the HG cogs are certainly more ductile. When removing burrs and reshaping HG cogs, I have noticed that they can be filed, where UG cogs usually cannot be. Since HG is more or less intended to be shifted under load (at least sometimes) I'd suggest that if you used UG sprocket material on an HG design you would break teeth, and break them often. I have seen broken teeth in other maker's HG-esque designs, and this might be the reason why.

Arguably sprocket hardness isn't what dominates sprocket wear; it is probably chain wear that does that, and because chains are typically covered in a mildly abrasive sludge of road dirt, even very hard sprockets will eventually wear because of this, even if the chain doesn't stretch.

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CJ
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by CJ »

Ayesha wrote:An engine can be tuned to give most torque at the low end, a ‘stump puller’, or at the high end, a ‘howler’.
A ‘Power curve’ is produced.

A cyclist can apply equal torque all the way up the rev range until it is physically impossible to move the legs fast enough. A straight inclined ‘Power curve’ is produced until it tails off at high speed.

Not true. Everyday cycling experience, supported by measurements reported in Bicycling Science, demonstrates that the human engine is likewise capable of high torque at low rpm and less torque at high rpm, and that the product of this varying torque and rpm produces a power curve.

The human engine is, in fact, like a motor with a camshaft profile and timing that can be altered on the fly, by deciding to apply more effort or adopting a different action, e.g. by sliding forward on the saddle or (a radically different 'camshaft') by standing and dancing on the pedals! Each effort level yields a different curve (according to Fig. 2.11 p49 of the 2nd Edition), with a maximum efficiency that is not only lower for long duration riding than that which may be sustained for a short time only but also peaks at a lower rpm. This chimes with experience. The same person will usually pedal faster when trying hard, than when cruising (and not because he's run out of gears) and an athlete will use a higher gear AND a higher cadence for a short time trial, compared to a long one.

But the curves in Fig. 2.11 are quite flat. For a given level of effort (measured by oxygen consumption, which is a proxy for fuel consumption and hence yeilds an efficiency value), a variation of cadence as much as 20% different from the optimum results in only a few percentage points loss of efficiency.

With gaps between gears of 14% (like a Rohloff hub or a wide-range MTB cassette) the most anyone will have to vary their cadence from the optimum (without also altering their breathing rate) is 7%. Looking at the curves in Fig. 2.11, it is hard to conceive of even a 1% reduction in efficiency from altering ones cadence by such a small amount, half a percent maybe. And one can always breathe a little quicker or slower to make that new cadence optimum. So I don't think we need finer tuning.

Racers maybe. If they're already breathing at the limit they have nowhere left to go and half a percent could be winning or losing.

One thing that will please Ayesha, is that the optimum cadences in Fig. 2.11 are much closer to his big gear churning than my twiddling! He must have a good old British motorcycle engine, whereas mine's a Yamaha! :wink: Much of the data behind Fig. 2.11 however, came from Japan! :?
Chris Juden
One lady owner, never raced or jumped.
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Trigger
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Re: Do we now have too many gears ?

Post by Trigger »

I would liken my own cadence and preferred gear size to that of being a diesel engine, compared to a Honda VTEC twiddling that seems to be what is suggested as the recommended cadence/style.

I am much more able to push on through some leg fatigue that comes with a bigger gear than I am able to deal with the increased cardiovascular effort required for spinning.
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