Saddle too high? Medial knee pain, with pictures on bike..

[capoz77]

Evening guys,

There looks to be an abunance of great advice on here RE saddle height and knee pain.

My medial knee pain which started around 4 weeks ago.

Pain here...




I'm 6 foot 2", ride a large Heckler, and never had any issues with my knees until now.

The pain isn't there when I first get back on the bike, I can ride happily for over an hour without a hint of a problem. The first major climb in a ride tends to start it off, from that point it gets worse as the ride progresses. It manifests itself as a twinge in my left leg, where the quad joins the knee cap, on the inner side. Hurting most when I apply the downward pedal stroke. Hurting more if I climb again.

From pedal axle to seat is currently 37". My inseam is 35".



I did the hanging plum test and my knee is directly over the axle so fore/aft looks ok.

Here are some side on pics (only had 5 seconds to hop on bike from timer on camera so footing may not be 100% lol), what to you think, saddle too high, low?










The side giving me a problem >>>

[531colin]

just to be sure, show us a side-on picture of where it hurts?
I'm guessing medial ligament.....the quads all taper down to ligaments that attach to the top of the knee cap, nothing much attaches to the side of the knee cap.
Light reading for you.....http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/11/knee-pain/
http://bikedynamics.co.uk/guidelines.htm
http://www.jimlangley.net/crank/bikefit.html

Make sure when you pedal, your knees go straight up and down....not sticking out to the sides, like a flat-footed person walking.

[mgronow]

Hi,

I have recently (this year) had medial knee pain sorted by having a bike fit and fitting cleat wedges/arch supports in my shoes.

Medial knee pain is usually caused by cycling (or walking) "knock knee'd" and is corrected with "varus support"...check this out...http://www.specialized.com/specs/spec.jspspeccode=bodygeometryshoes&tablewidth=700&cellwidth=650

What does your knee do at the top of the pedal stoke? Mine used to come over the top tube but is now much improved.

regards
martin

[MisterTea]

Firstly it's very important to understand that saddle height for riding off road is completely different from road bike setup. On a road bike you will spend long periods of time in the same position. yet off road you should be constantly shifting weight around and altering your position on and off the saddle, pushing yourself to the back and off the back of the saddle, as well as forward on the tip of the nose. And a lot of time standing off the saddle.

With this in mind, your saddle height (distance from pedal top to to saddle top) should not be the same for road and off road bikes. Off road requires saddle heights lower than road. I run my cross country mtb saddles about a cm lower than road, and bikes on more extreme gradients are run with saddle much lower, Plus i often alter the saddle height during rides (uppy downy posts)

So, if you are riding this bike off road (as it looks like its intended) then yes the saddle is too high.

[531colin]

The pictures show a very "heel down" stance. If you actually ride like that, then the saddle is on the high side.....but most people actually ride with a level foot at the bottom, or a bit "heel up"....in which case its probably OK.
Get somebody to observe you riding, or film you......most people also ride with the pedal under the ball of the foot, too....

[mark a.]

Saddle height looks ok to me, maybe a tad high. I am assuming this is your "riding to the trails" mode, as my saddle would definitely be dropped for technical downhills. I normally have mine "too low" for road riding just as a happy compromise between power uphill and comfort/control downhill.

With no medical knowledge, I would look at other causes, like knock-knees as others have mentioned.

(The foot position is also fine as it's better for control, unlike road riding where you want to be on the balls of your feet for power.)

[andrewjoseph]

Are these the shoes you ride in? They may be allowing your foot to 'collapse' due to the soft sole.

When you tested the knee over axle, did you have pedals at 9-3 o'clock? Your feet don't look as if ball of foot is over axle.

As an aside, either the frame is too small or you need a longer, lower stem. You are very upright, even for a mtb.

On closer inspection, that bike is too small for you.

[MisterTea]

As an aside, either the frame is too small or you need a longer, lower stem. You are very upright, even for a mtb.

You can't say that without knowing the type of riding the OP is undertaking. You are making massive assumptions. Whilst I'd agree the frame looks too small for traditional XC riding, there are many other types of off road other than plain XC. And as the bike is clearly capable of seriously rad stuff, a short top tube with high bars is great when riding steep twisty descents.

[capoz77]

Thanks for great advice so far guys

531colin - Thanks for the links. It does appear to radiate from a muscle joining somewhere, like a mix of side knee and lower qaud, and once its started usually after an hour of solid riding, or the first steep hill which brings it on, it then hurts to really use that leg to put the power down for the rest of the ride.


Mgronow - i'll try and figure out if I ride knock knee'd, I see a lot of pro racers almost touch the top tube with their knees, is this worse than flaring knees out?


MisterTea - I ride offroad 50% of the time, getting to the trails, and gaining altitude on rides is a lot of country roads, tarmac, bridleways, etc so seated for long periods riding.

531colin - I didnt notice that RE heel down stance, it makes sense though, heel down as stretching the leg too much to reach pedal.

mark a - i'm confused RE foot position, on cleats I understand ball of feet is the norm, but there is a lot of contrary advice on flat pedals and where foot should be over the axle.

andrewjoseph - I ride in Shimano AM41 riding shoes, very stiff, very sticky, which means super grippy, so grippy in fact you have to make a concious effort to pick foot off and reposition if desired.



I've tried various SPDs and just couldnt get on with them, prefer flats espeically for the downhills. Also i'm holding on to the top of the fence to stabilise myself, so upper body may look too upright, as i'm jumping on the bike in 5 seconds before the timed shutter goes off! I'll put a pic up of the pedals 9-3oclock.

MisterTea - when I do get offroad its usually technical flowing descents, rock gardens, singletrack, drops etc. But to get to the top of the trails usually around 2000-2500 feet it needs a lot of climbing. I twist the lever on the rear Fox RP23 shock and it locks the rear suspension out, and the front forks lock out too, so its almost a full rigid for climbing.



also what are the thought of setback seatposts?

eg.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/thomson-elite-s ... seat-post/

[531colin]

I haven't looked at this website....http://www.viviangrisogono.com/....but this woman's books are brilliant....one on sports injuries, and a whole book on knees....I have both, you can often pick them up for next to nothing on Amazon.
About the only muscles in the vicinity are the Sartorius and the Vastus Medialis.
In all probability you have picked up an "overuse" injury, it will probably respond to stretching, massage, and not doing anything that aggravates the injury.....that's the hard bit, if cycling aggravates it!.....but what happens if you do your ride/climbing at "half power"....? that can be a way of still getting out while you re-habilitate the injury. While you are concentrating on keeping the power output low, you can also work on pedalling style, ie knees straight up and down, fluid pedalling in circles, not pumping up and down.

As for layback posts, the first thing to try is making sure your saddle is right at the end of its travel on your existing post, you might get another 10mm there.

[mark a.]

SPDs have the cleats around the ball of the foot. This is great for road riding and XC-style off-road as it gives maximum power. However, for technical MTB you want you need maximum control, so you need to move around a lot more, especially further back, so a heel-down stance is great. This also means having your foot more central on the pedal, which SPDs don't allow. This is one of the reasons why a lot of people are going (back) to flat pedals on MTB.

[531colin]

interesting stuff......http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/04/power-to-the-pedal-cleat-position/
......scroll down to the pictures!

[Andyw]

I had similar right leg medial ligament pain a year or so ago. My physio reviewed my riding position on my bike on a turbo trainer.

He could see I had a weakness in my left Glute and my right ITB was too tight.

I worked on my strength and flexibility over the winter and this year no problems.

Try using a foam roller to stretch you ITB and see how you get on.

[andrewjoseph]

As an aside, either the frame is too small or you need a longer, lower stem. You are very upright, even for a mtb.

Tosh! You can't say that without knowing the type of riding the OP is undertaking. You are making massive assumptions. Whilst I'd agree the frame looks too small for traditional XC riding, there are many other types of off road other than plain XC. And as the bike is clearly capable of seriously rad stuff, a short top tube with high bars is great when riding steep twisty descents.

Yes I can, and I have. I have a guiding/leader/coaching qualification, I know what types of riding are out there. This is a good mtb, it is not suitable for urban riding with the full suspensions and chunky tyres. It can be used for commuting but it not the best tool for that job.

Even if it is just used as a commuter, it is too small. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the problem the OP is experiencing is due to not being able to get the saddle back far enough.

To ride down steep twisty descents, you generally have to ride to the top, high bars and an upright posture are not conducive to this being a pleasant experience.

[531colin]

The bike looks a bit small to me, too, but then I'm no mountain biker.
However, you won't get more saddle setback on a bigger size unless the seat tube angle is shallower.
But I can't see a reason to fixate on saddle setback.......we have no evidence that saddle setback is a problem....and I should think positioning the pedal as far back on the foot as in the pictures is equivalent to a lot of saddle setback.
Would people agree that you know if you need more setback, because you end up sitting on the back of the saddle a lot?......that's what happens to me.