Fit question stretched out on the hoods

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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
S49 & S52 + 531colins52 with 387 reach forcing an offset of 45 mm.
CHART
CHART

XS49 (CHAINSTAY CORRECTED - OFFSET & TRAIL ADJUSTED)
XS49 (CHAINSTAY CORRECTED - OFFSET & TRAIL ADJUSTED)

S52 (CHAINSTAY CORRECTED - OFFSET & TRAIL ADJUSTED)
S52 (CHAINSTAY CORRECTED - OFFSET & TRAIL ADJUSTED)

531COLIN S52 (CHAINSTAY CORRECTED - OFFSET & TRAIL ADJUSTED)
531COLIN S52 (CHAINSTAY CORRECTED - OFFSET & TRAIL ADJUSTED)

531COLIN S52 A HEAD 72o REACH 379 (CHAINSTAY CORRECTED - OFFSET & TRAIL ADJUSTED)
531COLIN S52 A HEAD 72o REACH 379 (CHAINSTAY CORRECTED - OFFSET & TRAIL ADJUSTED)

Edited - chainstay corrected - offset & trail adjusted.
531colin s52 a added with 72 degree head angle with 379 reach.
Last edited by NATURAL ANKLING on 14 Dec 2014, 10:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
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531colin
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by 531colin »

Its really irritating how a simple head cold completely removes my ability to do anything.....hopefully, I'm back now.

Stirling work, N.A....I have checked all your numbers, the only error I found was 156mm for the head tube instead of 196 on the 58cm....the programme appears to compensate by elongating the forks to keep the "stack" correct.

It looks to me like they are using 2 different fork offsets, an "industry standard" 45mm offset for most of the sizes, and a slightly shorter (41mm) for the 2 biggest sizes. They don't seem at all concerned to have the handling the same across all the sizes, they are happy to use head angles from 70.5 deg to 73 deg. with a 45mm offset (and fairly different trail values on N.A's diagrams) so I imagine the reduced offset is designed to keep the wheelbase down as the reach increases on the big sizes, but on the plus side it might make the big bikes less likely to shake their head.

So I think the 52 has an offset of 45mm and approximate ETT and stack of 538 and 387 respectively, not 530 and 379 with 53 offset.

To finally get back to the question of a choice between the 49 and 52 frame sizes......
As you might expect from a 2 deg change in head angle, there is a fair difference in reach with the 2 bikes, in the region of 11mm. Once you add the extra headset spacers to make up for 26mm difference in stack, the small bike will be another few mm shorter reach.
But there are other imponderables.....
If this is the OP's actual bike, is it sensible or even possible to get another 26mm bar height? (on the smaller frame to make up the "stack" difference))

Image

If the OP's saddle is now considerably too high, he may not need the full 26mm.
2 deg. difference in head angle will make a big difference in the handling.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Earlier post showing frame geometry, l58 is now corrected with 196 mm head tube.
You saying that the 52 cm on paper is an odd ball.
531colin s52 is now like the 54 cm.
47 & 49 cm have biggest trail because of shorter wheel base.
54 & 56 have medium trail.
58 & 61 cm have less offset and big trail.

Is the 52 cm a mistake on paper or in the flesh :?:
Reach is meant to be proportional on frame size :?:
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531colin
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by 531colin »

Have a read here about trail...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_geometry...particularly the diagrams with the red lines!
Head angle, fork offset and wheel size govern trail.....wheelbase as such has no bearing on trail.
These bikes are a good example to look at for 2 reasons....they all have the same wheel size, so that's one less variable, and N. A. has worked out all the numbers for us :D !
So....colin's modified 52, and the 54 & 56 all have 45mm offset, 73 deg head and 57mm trail.
47 & 49 have 45mm offset and slacker head angle, so more trail
58 & 61 have 73 head and less offset, so more trail.

(its just occurred to me that the 52 might have a slacker head angle.....so the lengths could be right, and the head angle wrong.........would 72 deg fit?
Mark1978
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by Mark1978 »

531colin wrote:Its really irritating how a simple head cold completely removes my ability to do anything.....hopefully, I'm back now.

Stirling work, N.A....I have checked all your numbers, the only error I found was 156mm for the head tube instead of 196 on the 58cm....the programme appears to compensate by elongating the forks to keep the "stack" correct.

It looks to me like they are using 2 different fork offsets, an "industry standard" 45mm offset for most of the sizes, and a slightly shorter (41mm) for the 2 biggest sizes. They don't seem at all concerned to have the handling the same across all the sizes, they are happy to use head angles from 70.5 deg to 73 deg. with a 45mm offset (and fairly different trail values on N.A's diagrams) so I imagine the reduced offset is designed to keep the wheelbase down as the reach increases on the big sizes, but on the plus side it might make the big bikes less likely to shake their head.

So I think the 52 has an offset of 45mm and approximate ETT and stack of 538 and 387 respectively, not 530 and 379 with 53 offset.

To finally get back to the question of a choice between the 49 and 52 frame sizes......
As you might expect from a 2 deg change in head angle, there is a fair difference in reach with the 2 bikes, in the region of 11mm. Once you add the extra headset spacers to make up for 26mm difference in stack, the small bike will be another few mm shorter reach.
But there are other imponderables.....
If this is the OP's actual bike, is it sensible or even possible to get another 26mm bar height? (on the smaller frame to make up the "stack" difference))

Image

If the OP's saddle is now considerably too high, he may not need the full 26mm.
2 deg. difference in head angle will make a big difference in the handling.


To clarify. Yes that is my actual bike. That picture was taken from when my saddle was too high. It's about 20mm lower now.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Just seen a flaw in my models so will change soon, the chain stay length should be horizontal not aligned in my models :oops:

That will change things......sorry 531colin you will have to rethink.............

Trail on smaller frames, I was saying that the wheel base was shorter so they gave a big trail to compensate, not that the wheel base was driving the trail.
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531colin
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by 531colin »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
Just seen a flaw in my models so will change soon, the chain stay length should be horizontal not aligned in my models :oops:

That will change things......sorry 531colin you will have to rethink.............

Trail on smaller frames, I was saying that the wheel base was shorter so they gave a big trail to compensate, not that the wheel base was driving the trail.


"industry standard" is to measure along the length of the stays, as you have done.
OK, I see what you mean about wheelbase and trail....I still don't think its a deliberate action to marry up short wheelbase with more stable steering, I think its just a by-product of a lazy way getting more toe clearance for the short frames. Much better to give shallow head and longer offset.....keeping the handling the same, and doubling up on the increased toe room.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Corrected all models :?
531colin do you think that they would just use different forks for each head angle :?:
Where do the forks fitted come from :?: Over...............
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Now when you look at the offset and trail they all follow a partern except the S52 which is different.
With the manufactures dimensions that are in the chart, you can change (drive) the offset and trail by adjusting either -
Reach.
Head angle.
Wheel base.

I said the model, without messing with any other dimension.
In practice only the head angle and fork would change the offset and trail if you were physicaly making the frame.
The head angle will adjust the offset and trail marginally with the same fork.
You could adjust the wheel base very slightly on my models to get an offset proportuanately matching the head angle, using the same fork, thats my gut feeling, nowing nowt about fork and frame manufacture.
The 52 model is different so maybe a typo on the dims.
So until I check maybe the same fork is used on all models :?:
Also maybe I am examining the detail too much and the specs would not neccesarily reflect the actual frames that closely :?:

The wheelbase dimension may well be measured after the bike has the fork fitted as there will be several tolerances stacked up, which is why there are small descrepensies, also the chart is rounding up / down to the nearest MM.
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531colin
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by 531colin »

Chainstay length is measured along the stay, not horizontally.
Everybody does it that way
Scott "Foil" I linked earlier does it that way
NA's numbers work doing it that way, most of the bikes have 45mm offset.

There is an error in the 52 dimension matrix, because NA's programme gives an unlikely offset to make the numbers fit.
On reflection, its more likely to be a single typo (head angle 71 typed instead of 72).
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
So you reckon that the horizontal chainstay on their table is incorrect :?:
Is it likely that the forks on all bikes have all the same offset :?:
Bearing in mind that in reality the offset is fixed with the fork (head axis to spindle axis is the offset) and will not change.
My models change because I can only work with what I know.
The TT's come out correct to the table, but they would because you only need - BB drop, Chainstay dim, Seat tube angle, Seat tube length, Reach is back to the BB.
Without going back to my models tonight -
I said that the offset will change with head angle, It wont but my models will.
So there is some thing not right with the table, they probaly used a rule (ruler) to record the dims :)
I am going to fix the offset (to drive other dims) as in real life, and fiddle it till it looks correct, just for my own curiosity if nothing else.
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531colin
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by 531colin »

I'm sure the chainstays are measured along their length......when you input the data like that, the programme calculated reasonable fork offsets, except for the 52, where I think the head angle is wrong in the table (more likely than both reach and top tube wrong)
the offsets calculated were 45mm for all except the 2 biggest, which were 41mm as I recall.
Mark1978
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by Mark1978 »

Apparently my frame has been repaired and is on it's way back, so no swapping sizes. But the discussion has been fascinating.
Mark1978
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by Mark1978 »

Bike fixed and a decent weekend for a change so the first ride for a while. A few changes since I was last out, stem shortened to 75mm from 80mm and the hoods tilted up a little. Cranks shorter, now using 165mm instead of 170mm.

For the stem it does feel like I'm sitting a little too upright at the moment and it's not easy getting into the drops, but for the winter at least that's ok, I did a 45 mile ride - albeit slowish and flatish and no issues at all with my back so good.

The shorter cranks are a definite help I'm much more able to spin at my preferred cadence without rocking around or putting too much pressure on my back especially while climbing.
Mark1978
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Re: Fit question stretched out on the hoods

Post by Mark1978 »

Well I did a 100km ride - around and around a 4.5mile circuit, and my back was completely fine, no problems when I got back.

A week later, and no changes to the bike I did another 100km ride, although a proper distance ride this time, not hilly but not flat, only one climb where I selected the inner ring for a few seconds.

Back was twinging almost from the outset, never any proper pain it was just a dull ache and I was somewhat reluctant to push or put in a lot of effort in case it made it worse. Precautionary stops every 30 minutes and it was still a dull ache when I got back, the main issue isn't that but more that I felt that I couldn't try and go faster in case it made it worse.

I haven't tried any real climbing this year hoping to give that a go next weekend.
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