tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

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Brucey
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Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by Brucey »

just saw this;

http://2011.pro-lite.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=271&Itemid=48

which is interesting....

I am not convinced that tying and soldering makes any noticable difference in wheels (except to the noise they make under duress) but these widgets may have one very useful function; they would quickly allow proper testing of wheels so see if there is any measurable difference or not, on exactly the same wheel.

cheers
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rjb
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Location: Somerset (originally 60/70's Plymouth)

Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by rjb »

The subject of tied and soldered spokes has come up before - the conclusion was that it made no discernable difference. I may be a sceptic but i can't see that these widgets will make any difference except to your bank balance :roll: :roll:

Jezrant wrote:

Flicking through this weeks Cycling Weekly today,i noticed that the featured `Sprinters bike` had tied and soldered spokes on the drive side for `added stiffness`
Comments please.

This image from this years Tour of Flanders does seem an argument for large flanged hubs!

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gallery/a ... -1-33604/6



Subject: Tied and Soldered Wheels
From:Jobst Brandt
Date: December 16, 1996

While writing The Bicycle Wheel, to conclusively determine what effect tying and soldering of spoke crossings in a wheel had, I asked Wheelsmith to lend me an untied pair of standard 36 spoke rear wheels, on Campagnolo low and high flange hubs. I had an inner body of a freewheel machined with flats so that a wheel could be clamped into the vise of a Bridgeport milling machine while the left end of its axle was held in the quill.

With the hub rigidly secured, with its axle vertical, dial gauges were mounted at four equally spaced locations on the machine bed to measure rim deflections as a 35lb weight was sequentially hung on the wheel at these positions. The deflections were recorded for each location and averaged for each wheel before and after tying and soldering spokes.

The wheels were also measured for torsional rigidity in the same fixture, by a wire anchored in the valve hole and wrapped around the rim so that a 35 lb force could be applied tangential to the rim. Dial gauges located at two places 90 degrees apart in the quadrant away from the applied load were used to measure relative rotation between the wheel and hub.

Upon repeating the measurements after tying and soldering the spokes, no perceptible change, other than random measurement noise of a few thousandths of an inch, was detected. The spokes were tied and soldered by Wheelsmith who did this as a regular service. The data was collected by an engineer who did not know what I expected to find. I set up the experiment and delivered the wheels.[/quote]
At the last count:- Peugeot 531 pro, Dawes Discovery Tandem, Dawes Kingpin X3, Raleigh 20 stowaway, 1965 Moulton deluxe, Falcon K2 MTB dropped bar tourer, Rudge Bi frame folder, Longstaff trike conversion on a Giant XTC 840 :D
Brucey
Posts: 44522
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by Brucey »

rjb wrote:The subject of tied and soldered spokes has come up before - the conclusion was that it made no discernable difference. I may be a sceptic but i can't see that these widgets will make any difference except to your bank balance :roll: :roll:


Oh, I agree. However if I am critical of JB's experiment, it is with the general loading and especially the torque value applied to the rear wheel. Both are rather low values. (There is also the possibility that the tying and soldering affects the spoke tension somehow if it is carried out at the final stage and is not checked again afterwards.)

The claim has always been that such wheels are of benefit to sprinters and hill climbers, under which circumstances the loads are somewhat greater. I'd feel more comfortable with the experimental evidence if it replicated these conditions more closely.

I'm not sure about the correct load values, but (given the accelerations that trackies produce, plus the ability to climb/accelerate up 1in3 climbs, and the varying torque that pedalling produces etc) I'd suggest that a tangential load of, (say) 100lb might better represent the extreme conditions. A comparably increased lateral load might be appropriate, as might a combined load, which hasn't been investigated, but surely does happen in practice.

These widgets would allow a perhaps 'better' -and certainly easier- set of experiments to be carried out. Both the tied and the 'control' (unbraced) condition measurements can be repeated ad nauseam if required, too.

cheers
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mig
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by mig »

what experiences do people have of tied & soldered wheels please?

i'm considering same for a set of track wheels and, possibly, road wheels too.
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531colin
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Location: North Yorkshire

Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by 531colin »

mig wrote:what experiences do people have of tied & soldered wheels please?

i'm considering same for a set of track wheels and, possibly, road wheels too.


Tied and soldered spokes....or stainless spokes.....choose one.....


I'm sure I saw widgets like those on a set of factory wheels......
Brucey
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by Brucey »

you can solder (soft solder) stainless steel but you need a much more aggressive flux, so it is a right pain to do this.

This article

http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=150

explains more.

cheers
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mig
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by mig »

thank you.

have either of you two gents ridden tied and soldered wheels?
Brucey
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by Brucey »

yup, I've ridden a set. They felt nice, and I thought there was a bit less noise from the spokes under real duress, but I didn't have the chance to compare to 'the same' wheels without, so I can't say any more than that.

One of the genuine benefits of T&S is that broken spokes don't flap about so much. However in most cases I reckon you can spend the time and effort better on making sure spokes don't break in the first place.

cheers
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mig
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by mig »

were they track or road wheels brucey?
Brucey
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by Brucey »

they were track wheels, but I was riding them on the road (hill climbing)

cheers
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Brucey wrote:yup, I've ridden a set. They felt nice, and I thought there was a bit less noise from the spokes under real duress, but I didn't have the chance to compare to 'the same' wheels without, so I can't say any more than that.

One of the genuine benefits of T&S is that broken spokes don't flap about so much. However in most cases I reckon you can spend the time and effort better on making sure spokes don't break in the first place.

cheers


Or just pop a small cable tie round each cross ;)
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
mig
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by mig »

come off it brucey. nothing is nice to ride in a hillclimb! :wink:
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531colin
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by 531colin »

Brucey wrote:you can solder (soft solder) stainless steel but you need a much more aggressive flux, so it is a right pain to do this.

This article

http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=150

explains more.

cheers


It sounds like a right royal pain. Could you use glue instead?

I can't remember ever having ridden tied/soldered, but I have built and ridden snowflake....

http://macvillain.com/ak37-wheel-build.html

I don't think it makes much difference, but you can do it with stainless!
mig
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by mig »

surely a combination of the two would be groundbreaking.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: tied and soldered spokes; widget alternative

Post by [XAP]Bob »

mig wrote:surely a combination of the two would be groundbreaking.

Or just wheel breaking...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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