Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

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ukdodger
Posts: 2992
Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 5:32pm
Location: Sunny Surrey

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by ukdodger »

jb wrote:Alfine 11 owners might find my following findings interesting especially regarding some faults that have been reported further back in the thread.

The other day I was climbing a steep hill in bottom gear, when I got to the top and tried to change down it went into the wrong gear or would not change at all. I dismounted and started looking and found the selector arm to be stiff on part of its travel. After loosening the wheel it became loose again and I tightened it up and carried on. All was well until I hit the next hill and I dropped down to low. It became stiff again and gears were not selected in their proper order.
I decided to strip it down for a look.

All was well until I came across one half of this almost hidden in an alcove:
P1080859.jpg


I looked around but could not find where it had come from and thought it may have broken off the end of the clutch spring which was the same cross section, so against my better judgement rebuilt it thinking it could have been causing the stiffness by getting caught in the mechanism and maybe it had always been there hidden. Not surprisingly down the road at the next hill the same thing happened again (hoping never works)

The only place left to look was the complicated spring mechanism so I rather reluctantly dismantled it and low & behold the other half appeared just inside the fixed sun gear:
P1080852.jpg


So now I have the whole hub stripped to its bear bones:
P1080858.jpg


So, what the problem was, & what the problem could be for a lot of failures is this clip breaking which causes the sun gear to be pushed forwards because its helical and there is side thrust. This in turn causes slight binding of the gear change mechanism, however a bit of back peddling can re-seat it & loosen it off again.
P1080860.jpg


I'm a bit disappointed now because this is
a) looking like a weak spot in this hub gear which was up to now proving quite robust
b) The part is almost certainly unobtainable without buying the whole axle mechanism (haven't looked into the cost yet). I am reluctant do do this if this is going to happen in another 5000 miles or the next 1:4 climb

I could attempt to make one but its taking a lot of force and needs to be a very particular shape. There's probably a huge box full of them sat in Shimanos factory and my otherwise undamaged hub gear is grounded without one. This seems to be an Achilles heal of this box and makes it now an uncertainty for long tours, although I could have ridden it for a while as it was.

Hope this helps others with identifying Alfine hub problems.


You're a braver man than me stripping it down as far as that. I presume without a manual of any sort?
jb
Posts: 1785
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by jb »

Not really, I've nothing to loose as its useless as it is.
I'm always wary of taking loaded springs to bits; getting them back together might be a different story - providing I can get a new clip.
Cheers
J Bro
rofan
Posts: 142
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by rofan »

rofan wrote:
FYI: The clip in the pic is about 0.8 thk, diameter about 15mm


Sorry, wrong info. Just disassembled a N8: outer diameter is about 21mm (broken one)
ClipSUNGearN8DM21.jpg


good news: the Clip of the A11 has also 21mm.(0.79thk).
ClipSungearA11_1a.jpg


clipSungearA11_kl.jpg

And I put it into the N8: does work.
So vice versa should work too
jb
Posts: 1785
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by jb »

I'm having an insert made that I think/hope will be an improvement.
I'll post a picture when it arrives & if it works.

As I said, it looks like they've used the same design from the N8 without taking into account the extra forces involved with helical gears, it really is a skinny clip.
Cheers
J Bro
MacBludgeon
Posts: 462
Joined: 6 Feb 2009, 4:19pm
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire, UK

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by MacBludgeon »

Nothing to add other than AWESOME efforts guys and so many thanks from the crowd :D
nuns, no sense of humour
jb
Posts: 1785
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by jb »

Well, after a bit of faffing around the Alfine is back on the road and completed at least one 1:4 climb without mishap.
I had the new design gear retainer made by a 'mate' with a wire cutter (handy that) out of tool steel un-hardened. thus:

New retainer to replace the spring clip
New retainer to replace the spring clip

And it fit thus:

Retainer fitted into gear on the axle
Retainer fitted into gear on the axle

Then began the fun. The two springs had absolutely no intention of being tensioned - or co-operating in any way what's so ever.
So i had to make a small jig to help, thus:

Jig fitted to gear & cam track - holding lower spring in place
Jig fitted to gear & cam track - holding lower spring in place

It allowed me to clamp the lower spring in place whilst I got the top spring coiled up wrapped round the drum and finally hooked onto the stationary plate. The problem being that the two springs were not tensioning against each other, in fact one was trying to undo the other so the clamp also stopped the lower spring being unwound by the top spring. Thus:

top spring and fixed plate in position
top spring and fixed plate in position

I now had to very gingerly remove the jig because it would not pass over the top pawl plate. So then the pawl plate and selection lever slid over it all to capture it & render it 'safe'. VOILÀ:

Spring mechanism assembled - phew
Spring mechanism assembled - phew

The new retainer is hopefully a little more robust than the original, it is held in place by the gear pressing against it, time will tell if its prone to creeping out of position but I doubt it.
Cheers
J Bro
Brucey
Posts: 44666
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Brucey »

good work!

I wonder how many other Alfine 11 hubs have this kind of thing in their future?

My chum's A11 hub is still working OK but, worryingly, the last oil change showed that something is probably wearing inside, because the oil that came out had some debris in it.

Also I recently found this;

http://www.rideyourbike.com/shimanoaxleunit.shtml

which shows a failure mode that can occur with the 8s hub, again related to the sun pinion locking. Obviously you don't know what loads a failed hub had seen (in gears 1-4 in the 8s hub which load this part up) but the design of the A11 hub is similar in this area so presumably the same thing might happen.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
jb
Posts: 1785
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by jb »

Brucey wrote:Also I recently found this;

http://www.rideyourbike.com/shimanoaxleunit.shtml

which shows a failure mode that can occur with the 8s hub, again related to the sun pinion locking. Obviously you don't know what loads a failed hub had seen (in gears 1-4 in the 8s hub which load this part up) but the design of the A11 hub is similar in this area so presumably the same thing might happen.

cheers

Och, That would be the end of it for me, but I didn't notice any cracking and I rarely stand on the pedals.

The trouble with these disaster instances is you never know what the author considers 'normal' riding. We all know that hub gears will break before a cassette hub would in most instances so if you want to attack every hill like the devil possessed then don't get a hub gear.
Cheers
J Bro
Brucey
Posts: 44666
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Brucey »

jb wrote:

The trouble with these disaster instances is you never know what the author considers 'normal' riding. We all know that hub gears will break before a cassette hub would in most instances so if you want to attack every hill like the devil possessed then don't get a hub gear.


I agree re the 'normal riding'.

As time goes on I have come to appreciate the virtues of simpler IGHs more and more; SA 3s hubs (even recently made ones) seem strong enough for most folk and don't exactly give you the fear when it comes to repair time.

Cynically I'd suggest that the reason cassette hubs don't break sooner is often that the poor old chain fails first. Maybe if IGH chains were skinny and ran at daft angles the hubs wouldn't break....? :wink:

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
rofan
Posts: 142
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by rofan »

jb wrote:it is held in place by the gear pressing against it

No mechanical fixation against rotation?

(the finger of the pawl actuator is moving inside this area, isn´t it)
jb
Posts: 1785
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by jb »

rofan wrote:
jb wrote:it is held in place by the gear pressing against it

No mechanical fixation against rotation?

(the finger of the pawl actuator is moving inside this area, isn´t it)

It is but it does not touch it. The retainer has to be slid on then turned round 180 deg. The gear is an interference fit so when pressed back onto the clip it holds it there.
I did think about punching a small pop mark to prevent it turning but this was only possible at one point so it could turn the other way, also disassembly would be harder. If it proves to be a problem I will try to trap it somehow. But as the only force is to try and push the gear off the shaft axially I can't see it moving.
Cheers
J Bro
rofan
Posts: 142
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by rofan »

Question:
did anybody else analyse the function of the 2 slide springs, Carrier 3 Slide Spring
and Sun Gear 4 Slide Spring?
They slow down the rotation of Carrier3 and Sungear4.
Sliding means a little loss of efficiency and makes a strange sound in any gear.
After removing them,it SEEMs there is no difference in ratio or any other effect.
What are they for?

(cannot find them in jb´s gearing diagramms on page 26)



SlideSpringsCarrier3SunGear4
SlideSpringsCarrier3SunGear4

(springs moved half turn)
jb
Posts: 1785
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 12:17pm
Location: Clitheroe

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by jb »

As far as I can tell they are to stop the whole gear assembly from spinning when free-wheeling. I left them out once and it clicked loudly on the pawls when free-wheeling possibly causing premature wear.
Cheers
J Bro
Brucey
Posts: 44666
Joined: 4 Jan 2012, 6:25pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by Brucey »

the other thing that they might do is to help prevent any unloaded parts of the gear train from rattling audibly when you go over bumps.

cheers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
rofan
Posts: 142
Joined: 8 Jul 2012, 6:29pm

Re: Shimano Alfine 11 - Longer term reliability

Post by rofan »

Brucey wrote:the other thing that they might do is to help prevent any unloaded parts of the gear train from rattling audibly when you go over bumps.


imho that could do the carrier hold plate. The springs themselves have little space to move
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