Converting from drops to flats for better brakes: Worth it?

[LuckyLuke]

Hi, I'm frustrated by the wet weather braking on my commuter bike. I've a Surly Long Haul Trucker with Tektro CR720s. I've followed the excellent advice from the forum sticky on canti set up. I'm using an uphanger and Kool Stop dual compound brake pads. I clean my wheel rims and file the pads weekly. Collectively I found these measures improved matters, and dry weather braking is fine, but in the wet I'm disappointed. I don't think there's much room for further improvement with the cantis, so I'm looking at alternatives.

I considered a road disk brake up front. I've ruled it out partly due to the overall cost, partly because I don't want my bike to be too sexy and attract the magpies. I have to lock my bike up outside in public at different parts of the day, and fear a disk brake would attract wrong uns.
I've ruled out mini-Vs and V-brakes with Travel Agents. The collective wisdom of the internet is lukewarm over their effectiveness.

I'm thinking about going flat bar, MTB shifters and MTB V-brakes over the winter. My dad has a Spesh Sirrus and I've really enjoyed it whenever I've borrowed it. I found the riding position great for urban riding. My provisional shopping list includes longer stem (~£20), flat bar (~£20), grips (~£20), 9 speed Deore shifters (~£30) and brake levers (£20), Deore V brakes (~£30), 9 speed cassette (~£20), & chain (£15). ~£175 ish in sum. (Wow, it soon mounts up...)
My existing set up is 10 speed Mirage Ergos, 8 speed Shimano cassette and chain, Deore rear mech, Campag square taper BB, Stronglight triple 48-38-26 and a Campag Triple Front mech.

I have a few questions. To all those with V-brakes; would they offer noticably better braking in the wet than my current set up?
If so and I do go ahead, could I use my existing front mech with an indexed Deore shifter?

As ever all comments are appreciated. Best wishes, Luke

[531colin]

Keep your drops, fit V brakes, V brake drop levers, and bar end shifters.
Great brakes, and use any F. mech you like, that shift isnt indexed.
Simples!

EDIT Or fit a set of these, better mechanical advantage than CR720 if you use Sheldon Browns straddle wire trick to best advantage...http://www.defietsenmaker.nl/index.php?item=shimano-br-mt60-cantilever-brake-set--_-1980_s&action=article&group_id=32&aid=353&lang=EN

[belgiangoth]

I have the tektro drop Vs on my fixed gear, they are great, much better than the old Dia Compes. The problem with the bar end shifters is that they are mostly used by TT riders so cost £30 and up. If you find a better deal on the shifters let me know!

[reohn2]

Before you do anything drastic try a pair of these :- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BBB-Tristop-V-Bra ... 3f041e3b56
I'm finding them much better than Koolstops.

For anyone with Dual Pivot calipers these:- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BBB-Techstop-Cali ... 3f02e7d0f5 are woithout doubt the best pads I used to date and I've tried a few.

Both sets/types excel in wet weather, clearing water from the rim quickly providing very good braking with a very rim friendly compound.

[CREPELLO]

Before you do anything drastic try a pair of these :- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BBB-Tristop-V-Bra ... 3f041e3b56
I'm finding them much better than Koolstops.

For anyone with Dual Pivot calipers these:- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BBB-Techstop-Cali ... 3f02e7d0f5 are woithout doubt the best pads I used to date and I've tried a few.

Both sets/types excel in wet weather, clearing water from the rim quickly providing very good braking with a very rim friendly compound.

Good to hear your positive experience there John. Do you know if the V brake pads will fit fork clearances of a touring bike. I bought a set of similar BBB triple compound pads around 5 years ago and they were so fat that I couldn't fit them within the clearance of my '02 Galaxy.

Koolstop seem so thin on the ground that it's worth seeking out similar blocks that LBS's can get hold of for sensible money.

[reohn2]

Before you do anything drastic try a pair of these :- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BBB-Tristop-V-Bra ... 3f041e3b56
I'm finding them much better than Koolstops.

For anyone with Dual Pivot calipers these:- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BBB-Techstop-Cali ... 3f02e7d0f5 are woithout doubt the best pads I used to date and I've tried a few.

Both sets/types excel in wet weather, clearing water from the rim quickly providing very good braking with a very rim friendly compound.

Good to hear your positive experience there John. Do you know if the V brake pads will fit fork clearances of a touring bike. I bought a set of similar BBB triple compound pads around 5 years ago and they were so fat that I couldn't fit them within the clearance of my '02 Galaxy.

Koolstop seem so thin on the ground that it's worth seeking out similar blocks that LBS's can get hold of for sensible money.

I have a them on the Santana Tandem with 32mm Marathons fitted,its quite a heavy duty fork and they OK,I had various types fitted to to my '97 Galaxy before I sold it, Shimano/Koolstops/Astecs/Fibrax,the BBB triplestops were no thicker than any of the others,so I'd say 99.9% yes they'll fit OK.
BTW if you've got replacable shoes fitted already, Dot bike have just the slip in pads for cantis,V's or D/Pivots @ around £8.50 inc post for two pairs(four pads)

[hamster]

If you look hard enough you can also find Magura drop levers on ebay. These are fantastic as a replacement for cantis (they fit the same bosses).

[freebooter]

I have been battling poor braking with cantis and STI road levers as well and have given up trying to get decent braking. I have tweaked the set up according to the various advice on line and swapped to Koolstop pads, changed the cabling, swapped to cr720s etc etc etc. In the end I think it is just the cable pull from the levers doesn't match the brakes and this is made even worse by the poor hand position when breaking from the hoods.

On mine the braking is so bad that I can barely stop on steep hills in the dry even when braking in the drops and have sometimes had to get off and walk down hills rather than risk not being able to stop.

My bike has 26" wheels and mudguards with quite a lot of clearance. The only way I can see to improve braking any more is to lower the mudguards so the straddle can be set lower.

I did have interrupter levers on for a while and braking was much better using those but the narrow grip was unstable and I always found myself moving forward to the hoods to brake so I took the interrupter levers off but it did confirm my suspicion that the problem is really the road levers.

I was going to swap to trekking bars with mtb levers and v brakes but wasn't sure after I got the bars about the position. I was hoping to put the brake levers on the sides of the bar but couldn't do so and thought that having them on the normal position would be too close to me.

Currently I have just left it as is but I am still very unhappy having such poor braking. My other option is to try V brakes with road V levers and bar ends but I am not sure about the bar ends. The one thing I do love about the road STIs I have at the moment is the gear shifting. Having it to hand I do find that I change much more often and think I would miss that with bar ends.

If you do decide to go for the straight bar conversion I still have most of the components I bought but didn't use that I need to sell sometime. I have deore 9sp shifters, deore v break levers, deore front mech (you will need to swap the front mech as road ones aren't compatible with mtb shifters) and a trekking bar if you wanted to try that instead of a flat bar for more hand positions. I never got as far as buying v brakes themselves but it would reduce the cost for you a bit.

Let me know if you are interested and I can send you more details/photos.

[531colin]

If anybody wants to try bar end shifters, I'm in North Yorkshire (Harrogate) and you're welcome to try mine.
I have mine set up on compact drops, and I find they come to hand easily, without moving my shoulder.

I have old style cantis similar to the ones in my earlier post, set up with the straddle bridge about 70mm. above the brake blocks, any lower than that the braking is a bit fierce with ordinary road drop levers. Thats on an old bike with the old canti bosses closer together than they are now, but theres so much adjustment on the brake blocks, i dont think that matters. 70mm should give clearance for a biggish tyre and mudguard? Come to think of it, thats how I have run them un the past, with 26 x 1.5 or 1.75 tyres and guards.

the CR720's have the straddle wire fixings so low you cant use Sheldon Browns trick where the straddle wire itself creates a powerful mechanical advantage. There must be thousands of old style cantis in landfill.......

[CREPELLO]

I was going to swap to trekking bars with mtb levers and v brakes but wasn't sure after I got the bars about the position. I was hoping to put the brake levers on the sides of the bar but couldn't do so and thought that having them on the normal position would be too close to me.

That sounds a very frustrating experience to me. On the subject of trekking bars (butterfly bars), you do need a longer stem to get the best fit. On my old Galaxy, I used a 120mm stem, whereas I'd probably go for a 100mm stem with drops on the same bike. The final setup was actually rather sporty, with the stem set fairly low (by my standards) and the bars set towards the horizontal (actually about 30 degrees from the horizontal). Riding on the front section, I was nicely stretched out which made for a very aero style position - it was always good for putting the power down. I quite miss those bars.

[reohn2]

I've never had trouble stopping with canti's either cheap Alivio's that came on the Galaxy when new or the Suntour XC's that I upgraded them to.Suntour Self Energizing ones that came on the Thorn Discovery tandem.Old frogleg type Shimano ones that came on the Super Galaxy Twin tandem.They all worked well by toeing the pads in with a small piece of card from a cornflakes packet at the back end of the pad on fitting.
The trick is to use an old toestrap to set the brake lever where you want the brakes to touch the rim,then set the pads upto the rim,with the card inserted,(with a bit bent over the top of the brake pad to stop it falling out), at the back end of the pad to create the toein.Set the straddle wire so that it leaves the canti arm at around 90degrees.
Without doubt the best rim brakes are V's and Tektro RL520 levers but they lack modulation especially the back one as when braking the weight comes off the rear wheel and it locks up easily,which can be got used to but needs a bit of remembering when riding five different bikes with varying braking systems .
V's and TravelAgents with dropbar STI levers stop the tandem well enough
But the Daddy of them all is BB7 disk brakes with drop bar STI's,they don't half make a stoker's head clout you in the back in an emergency stop,which isn't so bad but she wears a helmet(sorry) with a peak on,OUCH!

[blackbike]

Keep your drops and fit a dual pivot road brake. Even a very cheap one will be excellent and solve all your problems.

Most forks can be fitted with these brakes. A little drilling might be needed, but that costs next to nothing.

[531colin]

Keep your drops and fit a dual pivot road brake. Even a very cheap one will be excellent and solve all your problems.
.

Provided the brake drop is deep enough.
On the bikes mentioned by Luke and Freebooter the brake blocks could end up on the tyre, even with Alhonga deep drop dual pivots. Measure twice, cut once, the joiners say.

Luke and Freebooter
can you post pictures of your front brake setup, taken from the front?
Its not as good as actually handling the bike, but you never know......
Or I'll take a look, if you can get to North Yorkshire

[LuckyLuke]

Morning folks, thanks for all your help, plenty of food for thought.

Keep your drops, fit V brakes, V brake drop levers, and bar end shifters.
Great brakes, and use any F. mech you like, that shift isnt indexed.
Simples!

EDIT Or fit a set of these, better mechanical advantage than CR720 if you use Sheldon Browns straddle wire trick to best advantage...http://www.defietsenmaker.nl/index.php?item=shimano-br-mt60-cantilever-brake-set--_-1980_s&action=article&group_id=32&aid=353&lang=EN

Hi 531Colin, good idea, I hadn't considered bar end shifters, but I've been spoiled by Ergos y'see...
I ordered a set of those Shimano Cantis after reading about them on another thread. Unfortunately they wouldn't fit onto the bosses of my LHT forks (bosses were too large). I have read that Canti boss mounts can vary between forks, can the diameter vary too?

Before you do anything drastic try a pair of these :- http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BBB-Tristop-V-Bra ... 3f041e3b56
I'm finding them much better than Koolstops.

Hi reohn2, Thanks for the intel. I've added to my wishlist for next month's cycle shopping.

If you look hard enough you can also find Magura drop levers on ebay. These are fantastic as a replacement for cantis (they fit the same bosses).

Hi Hamster, thanks for the tip. I had a sniff around online. Magura HS-66 brakes apparently are the drop levered ones. User's gave glowing reviews. Unfortunately I'd have to use downtube or bar-end shifters so have ruled them out.

I have been battling poor braking with cantis and STI road levers as well and have given up trying to get decent braking. I have tweaked the set up according to the various advice on line and swapped to Koolstop pads, changed the cabling, swapped to cr720s etc etc etc. In the end I think it is just the cable pull from the levers doesn't match the brakes and this is made even worse by the poor hand position when breaking from the hoods.

On mine the braking is so bad that I can barely stop on steep hills in the dry even when braking in the drops and have sometimes had to get off and walk down hills rather than risk not being able to stop.

Hi freebooter, sorry to hear. My canti disappointment is only with their wet-weather performance. Your brakes sound especially bad. As 531Colin suggests maybe you could post some pics and the forum could advise? (I'm gonna do likewise later today.) Or visit a trusted LBS?

If you do decide to go for the straight bar conversion I still have most of the components I bought but didn't use that I need to sell sometime. I have deore 9sp shifters, deore v break levers, deore front mech (you will need to swap the front mech as road ones aren't compatible with mtb shifters) and a trekking bar if you wanted to try that instead of a flat bar for more hand positions. I never got as far as buying v brakes themselves but it would reduce the cost for you a bit.

Let me know if you are interested and I can send you more details/photos.

Cheers pal, I'm still umming and ahhing about going flat bar. I might well be in touch after pay day, but don't wait for me, sell them sooner if you get the chance.

Keep your drops and fit a dual pivot road brake. Even a very cheap one will be excellent and solve all your problems.

Most forks can be fitted with these brakes. A little drilling might be needed, but that costs next to nothing.

Hi blackbike, cheers for the post. I did consider it as I'm currently running 28s with SKS P35 'guards. However I'd like to fit fatter tyres and bigger guards in future, and as 531Colin mentioned they may not reach anyway.

Does anyone think a low-profile canti might improve things? I've just re-read the thread "Tektro CR520 Brake set up". and Mark a's post:

I'm resurrecting a thread here, but I've just come across this document which details the mechanical advantage of different cantilever setups (pdf file):

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilever ... ometry.pdf

To my mind, it's better than the Sheldon explanations (shock!), partly because it talks more about wide-profile cantis (like the CR520 or 720). It has maths but also some handy graphs which explain things really clearly.

My reading of it gives the following notes:

1) Low-profile cantis give better mechanical advantage (MA) but are harder to set up
2) Wide-profile cantis are less powerful, but are more forgiving of set up and brake wear and, because MA is lower, they clear the rim more
3) Aiming for a 90º angle between straddle wire and anchor is not the thing to do
4) The lower the straddle wire the better

The same guy has also created a nifty online calculator so you can put in the details of your own brakes:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

I think I'll be getting my rulers and calipers out later and measuring the Tekro and Kore wide-profile cantis that we've got and sticking the data into that calculator.

I gather low profile canti's are fussier to set up, can squeal like pigs, don't afford as much rim clearance, and their MA declines as the pad wears so they will likely require more frequent adjustment. However I could put up with the lot for better braking!

[531colin]

Hi Luke
AFAIK canti bosses DIAMETER should be the same. Did you scrape the paint off the bosses? Some brakes pivot directly on the frame boss, some pivot on a sleeve which goes over the frame boss, which doesnt have to be a good fit, so changing brakes (in one direction) could result in a "no fit" simply due to paint or random rubbish. Pre V brake bosses were closer together than they are now, so you cant get new brakes on old bikes (at least some of the time) but old brakes should be OK on new bikes. (Either set the arms up a bit to use Sheldons straddle wire trick, or set the blocks in a bit on their stalks)
Measure up to see if dual pivots will fit, its the only way!
Low profile cantis can be set up to have good machanical advantage, but they rely on a low straddle for that, and the progression is the wrong way (see CJ's post). They are fussy to set up and very sensitive to block wear. I think the old style cantis are a better bet.
This thread has decided me, I WILL post pic of my bike with an "un -pair" of brakes, I have meant to do it for a while.