Garmin Edge 705 route problem

[Mick F]

If you have an Edge 705, will you carry out an experiment please?

Download this route:
http://bikeroutetoaster.com/Course.aspx?course=115081
and get it into your GPX folder.

Select the route and select Navigate.

The problem I'm finding, no matter how I construct this route in a variety of websites that when I get my 705 to navigate it, it misses some of the road out.

I'm using City Navigator® Europe NT and when I inspect the route that the 705 highlights in pink, it goes straight and misses a big bend in the road completely. Zoom in to just south of Berridale and particularly at Ousdale.

You will see that the route on BikeToaster is correct, but my Garmin doesn't like it!

Also, if I select the route on the 705 and just get it show the route on the map:
Menu/Where to?/Saved Rides/course/Show on Map the road is followed in black perfectly ok.

I've been tinkering with this for hours.

Help!!

[mw3230]

I think it's fairly widely accepted that excellent though the 705 is, it's not without some strange glitches. I cannot get mine to work out a route (by itself) of longer than say 70 - 80 miles. It starts to plot and then never finishes. I've queried this with a couple of fora and there isn't a satisfactory answer. On those rare days when I plan a century, I have the Garmin plot two route of 50 or so miles each.

It seems that the answer is to do as you've done and pre-plot the route using BRT or similar. In those case the Garmin will deal with a route of, it seems, any length although I believe that there is a limit to the number of track points or course points which can be plotted. Perhaps your problem is something do with this? - although re-reading your post, I'm wondering if the Garmin mapping is simply flawed at that location.

[Mick F]

I'm wondering if the Garmin mapping is simply flawed at that location.

Thanks.
That's my take on it, that's why I'd like someone else to try.

I wonder where else the maps are flawed?

It's no big deal actually, I could ride the route without a map! I know the 705 is a pig of a unit, and to be honest, I wish I'd never bought the thing. My Edge 305 was brilliant, but lacked maps. All Garmin needed to do was leave well alone, but just add maps.

[sbseven]

Tried it on my 705 with OSM mapping and it does the same thing, so I think it's the routing algorithm rather than the Garmin mapping layer. I have noticed the 705 exhibit this behaviour from time to time for no apparent reason with GPX Track, Route and GPXX files. I don't use GPX files of any kind on the 705 for this reason. It's not 100% reliable.

A suggestion for you MickF. I'm using my 705 for my Canada trip during the summer. I've plotted 9000km of GPS routing on BikeHike and BRT and split it into 400 km chunks and converted it to the TCX format instead of GPX. You can then 'do a course' which will show the pink navigation line (properly) on the map. You won't get turn by turn instructions but it will beep when you go 50m off-course. As you're on a tour and not in a rush, perhaps just follow the pink line?

In addition, you can put in manual course points (but there's a 100 point limit per TCX file) to simulate a turn by turn route for 'difficult' sections (e.g. through towns). (Both BRT and BIkeHike will add turn coursepoints automatically, if you so wish, although it's not foolproof). I'm also using a "generic" course point to mark and name each medium sized town (or POI) and then using the "distance to next course point" field to signify where my next water / food stop might be. The coursepoint list screen then reads like a list of upcoming towns/POIs, with their distances and ETAs and acts like a "roadbook" (as originally intended, I think).

The above strategy will work for any length tour using a 705, even a round the world. (Assuming you can keep the device powered, of course)!

Further advantages of a TCX file on the 705:
1. It's accurately shown, 100% of the time.
2. You can get a display of the upcoming elevation profile. You can't get this with a GPX.
3. The 705 will start up at it's normal rate, as the TCX files aren't parsed like the GPX files during the software load.
4. The course points, although they have to be created manually, can be a lot more pertinent and useful on a tour.

FYI, if you've not used a TCX course before:
1. Use BRT, BikeHike to create route and download as TCX. (When you download, set your approx average touring speed, to help with the roadbook screen described above). The route can be at least 400km long, maybe even longer, if you're not adding too many manual coursepoints. Just split the route into manageable chunks or day rides, if you have fixed accommodation.
2. Put the TCX files in the Garmin/Courses folder in either internal memory or on the SD card.
3. Then use menu: Training/Courses. This gives a list of the courses, choose one and "Do Course".

Hope that helps.
Shaun

[Mick F]

Thank you Shaun, perfect result and great information.

Thank you also for the techno answer. I'm learning all the time with this beast, and although I've used a Course with it before, I didn't think that the routing system may be different.

In slow time, I'll re-load all my GPX routes back into BikeHike - where I produced them - and re-download as TCX. Initially, I'll just do the Helmsdale/Brerridale section to see it. I'm not really bothered about turn-by-turn, I like maps and if I zoom in far enough, the screen is easy to follow. My JOGLE will not go through many cities I'm not familiar with, so I should be ok.

Thanks again,
Mick.

[sbseven]

...although I've used a Course with it before, I didn't think that the routing system may be different.

It's not really routing as such. The 705 is just displaying a breadcrumb trail on the screen using the position and elevation data in the TCX file. (Remember, the TCX file format is normally used for recording rides you've already done, so all that's happening when you "do course" is the 705 is displaying a "course" you've supposedly already ridden). It can beep when you go "off course", but that's just a sort of proximity alarm that goes off when your current position is about 50m from the nearest positional data point. You're responsible for picking up the route again (using a simple retrace) and when you rejoin you'll get a "course found" confirmation!

In slow time, I'll re-load all my GPX routes back into BikeHike - where I produced them - and re-download as TCX. Initially, I'll just do the Helmsdale/Brerridale section to see it. I'm not really bothered about turn-by-turn, I like maps and if I zoom in far enough, the screen is easy to follow.

For the sake of completeness, you can display your GPX (track) files on the 705 without it actually doing any routing. Do the following:
1. Menu: WhereTo?/Saved Rides and choose a GPX.
2. Choose "Map Setup".
3. Check the "Show on Map" and set the colour.
4. The MAP button will give you a preview. Press the mode button to return.
5. Finish by pressing the OK button.

You can then see the GPX track highlighted on the main map as a simple (and accurate) breadcrumb trail which you can follow with no navigation prompts. It lasts until you turn the unit off or repeat the procedure above and uncheck "Show on Map".

If you load your dodgy routing GPX file using this method, it will show properly on the map. Try it out and see what you think, it may be good enough for your needs...

I don't use this method for two reasons. One the track is highlighted using quite a thin line that I find difficult to follow on the road and two because the TCX method I've described previously has additional features useful to me - Upcoming elevation, roadbook screen, customisable navigation prompting, off course beep, faster 705 startup...


However you choose to navigate with the 705, enjoy your trip!

Shaun

[Mick F]

Thanks again, Shaun.
Yes, the pink line (why pink?) is easy to see, and the black line gets mixed up with the map too easily. I like the idea of a Course, but having tried to upload a few earlier, I had a couple of wierdo symptoms when I just transferred them to the Course Folder. I then tried getting them into Garmin Training Centre and letting it upload them itself. That seems to work perfectly.

....... If you load your dodgy routing GPX file using this method, it will show properly on the map. Try it out and see what you think, it may be good enough for your needs...

I said this, but perhaps you missed it ....

.... Also, if I select the route on the 705 and just get it show the route on the map:
Menu/Where to?/Saved Rides/course/Show on Map the road is followed in black perfectly ok.

..... the track is highlighted using quite a thin line that I find difficult to follow on the road and two because the TCX method I've described previously has additional features useful to me - Upcoming elevation, roadbook screen, customisable navigation prompting, off course beep, faster 705 startup...

Yep.
I see all the advantages.
Perfect and thanks again.

Mick.

[sbseven]

I like the idea of a Course, but having tried to upload a few earlier, I had a couple of wierdo symptoms when I just transferred them to the Course Folder...

I've seen an occasional bug with the course list screen where it sometimes displays the wrong selected course or won't display a course properly. This seems to happen if you copy one or more TCX files to the courses folder, use the 705 for something and then add further TCX files to the courses directory. It's not repeatable though.

To be safe and because I don't really trust the garmin software any more than you do, I expect(!), I normally check that each TCX course that I'm going to use shows properly on the 705 at home first. On the very rare occasion I've had problems, I connect the 705 to the PC, delete all the TCX files using Windows Explorer, disconnect the 705, power it on and off, reconnect it and transfer all the TCX files again using Explorer and recheck.

In my experience, and I use TCX courses a lot for audax rides and general ride 'routing', it has been reliable subject to the above check.

Shaun

[Mick F]

An update:

I've been experimenting with Courses, and right enough, from BikeHike you don't get turn-by-turn directions.

However, I've recently started using http://www.bikeroutetoaster.com/Course.aspx and when I download a course from there as a TCX, I get the directions! great stuff too! I see there's a set of check-boxes on the right that you can select your preferences, but the default system is perfect for me.

It's accurate, and the map shows the turns as well as having a list of distances and times to turn. This is just like a route, but far better as you get the info of how far to go and Goal Time etc.

From now on, it's BRT and courses! I'm a happy bunny!

[mw3230]

An update:

I've been experimenting with Courses, and right enough, from BikeHike you don't get turn-by-turn directions.

However, I've recently started using http://www.bikeroutetoaster.com/Course.aspx and when I download a course from there as a TCX, I get the directions! great stuff too! I see there's a set of check-boxes on the right that you can select your preferences, but the default system is perfect for me.

It's accurate, and the map shows the turns as well as having a list of distances and times to turn. This is just like a route, but far better as you get the info of how far to go and Goal Time etc.

From now on, it's BRT and courses! I'm a happy bunny!

Agreed - that's my experience too. You probably know this but don't forget to zoom right in when in built up areas so that you can actually see the lay of the land because when directions come thick and fast it's easy to miss one

[sbseven]

I've been experimenting with Courses, and right enough, from BikeHike you don't get turn-by-turn directions.

BikeHike will do coursepoint turn directions as well, but you have to turn it on. Click on the "Options" link and set "CoursePoint Mode" to auto. In both products, you can turn the coursepoints turning on and off as you wish.

Both products will occasionally miss out turn directions at certain junctions for some reason. I think it's to do with the underlying google maps data. I sometimes retrace the route in high magnification to add the missing turns manually, if the routing is critical. Both products allow you to add extra coursepoints manually.

BRT can be a bit more reliable at adding in attitude data to the TCX file, if that's important to you.

Both BikeHike and BRT have the ability to pre-warn you of turns as well. E.g. Set a coursepoint 100 yards back from the junction. This is useful, as getting a beep at the junction is too late when you're navigating. Both do this via the download option. I prefer BikeHike for this as with BRT you end up with two coursepoints, one on the junction and one "nnn" yards back. I find the double-beep unnecessary and you use your 100 course point limit twice as fast. (BikeHike just moves all the existing coursepoints "nnn" yards back).

Shaun

[Mick F]

Thanks again Shaun. Good info as usual! I'll look again at BikeHike, but it's such a pity you can't save or link the routes.

100 course points? No limit with my Edge 705. In fact, some of the courses I've constructed have over 700 of them according to the Summary page.
This one for instance:
http://www.bikeroutetoaster.com/Course. ... rse=121208

[sbseven]

100 course points? No limit with my Edge 705. In fact, some of the courses I've constructed have over 700 of them according to the Summary page.
This one for instance:
http://www.bikeroutetoaster.com/Course. ... rse=121208

Terminology, I think! That route only has about 20 coursepoints. (The red markers are the coursepoints). The 700 figure refers to the number of trackpoints in the TCX file. You're right in that there's no limit for trackpoints. (Actually there might be a 16000 limit).

Shaun

[Mick F]

Oops, sorry.
I must get my head round all this!

The thing is, though, I can't say I'm fussed too much about the finer points of navigation, so long as what the damn thing tells me is the truth!

My OP was about the mapping system being wrong. TCX is far better.

[andrewjoseph]

regarding bike hike and bike route toaster, I find that bike route toaster will actually follow the bike route (crossing over and under roads, following on left or right sides). Bikehike will not, it will follow the road the bike route is on but not the bike route itself.