Brooks Saddle Rivet Repair

[deliquium]

Has anyone any experience of replacing rivets on a Brooks saddle?

I have an old well used, worn and neglected B17 which if I ruin it won't really matter - it owes me nothing as the saying goes.

It has the normal small nickel plated steel rivets. The leather surrounding some has cracked, making the rivets ineffective. Although the shape and function of the saddle doesn't seem to be impaired. In order to cover over the cracks, which may or may not damage lycra short material, I could try replacing the rivets with larger copper ones (readily available from Brooks).

Any tinkerers tried this?

[thirdcrank]

Brooks sell the rivets.

http://www.brookssaddles.com/en/Shop_Ca ... ets%2c+etc.

I've never done the rivetting but once upon a time quite a lot of people did. When Brooks started fitting the large headed rivets, it only seemed to be to keep up with a DIY trend.

FWIW, I had a Brooks Pro from the early sixties, dating from the time when they had small rivets (Brooks had not yet leatched on to that DIY trend) After 40 plus years faithful service to the Thirdcrank BTM the leather round the rear rivets was worse than yours, with no obvious detriment. One of the rails broke when I was riding over some stupid traffic claming three or four years ago.

[CREPELLO]

It seems the obvious thing to do. The copper rivets would spread the load over the surrounding leather better wouldn't they? I once had a steel riveted B17 like that which needed fixing - if I hadn't of sold the bike it was on to my brother, who promptly wrote it off . I didn't realise that Brooks weren't copper riveted before a certain date, although thinking about it I've never seen a very old Brooks with the copper fitted.

[thirdcrank]

Once upon a time I think all Brooks saddles had small rivets and I think the usual metal was steel - certainly white metal of some sort + bagloops for a saddlebag. I used to own a second-hand B17 Sprint (Sprinter?) half the width of a B17 standard presumably intended for sprinting and it still had bagloops. (Very comfy and I did the longest ride of my life 250+ miles from Leeds to The Trossachs on it in 1961) In the days when leather saddles were all there was as far as good quality goes, and everybody treated their saddles very carefully. There's a link on here to an Italian cycling museum with bikes belonging to Coppi, Binda, Bartali etc. None has a saddle.

At some stage a fashion for "butchering" saddles started. Excess leather trimmed off, bagloops filed of etc. The Brooks Professional was put on the market (1962? 63?) to cater for this. A Brooks Pro from that era is not the same shape as the current model - the modern Pro is much flatter, less swaybacked than the original and the leather was trimmed around the nose, the wires are not the same distance apart, and originally the Pro had small copper rivets which I think was the first time they had been used by Brooks. (Could be wrong) In no time at all the butchers were fitting big copper rivets and eventually, Brooks introduced them on the Team Pro.

I've no idea if they do spread the load but they would certainly cover up that damage.

[CREPELLO]

Great little potted history there TC. I'm getting the impression that most Brooks saddle designs have evolved over the years, rather than being of age old designs rigorously adhered to. And is there a golden age for Brooks where design perfection crossed with high build quality, or perhaps that is just a myth? I certainly prefer the large copper rivets and the nicely rounded leather around the nose of the modern Brooks.

[thirdcrank]

Great little potted history there TC. I'm getting the impression that most Brooks saddle designs have evolved over the years, rather than being of age old designs rigorously adhered to. And is there a golden age for Brooks where design perfection crossed with high build quality, or perhaps that is just a myth? I certainly prefer the large copper rivets and the nicely rounded leather around the nose of the modern Brooks.

There have certainly been periods where quality fell off as the company passed from one ownership to another. There was a point (perhaps twenty years ago) where some B 17's looked to be made from cardboard. There has been quite a lot of comment about breaking rails, although the only time that has happened to me was the incident mentioned above and that saddle owed me nothing.

[531colin]

Thank you thirdcrank, I had no idea Brooks spares were available. I'm off to the loft to find all those old saddles that were "too bad to ride, too good to bin" and see if I can make a whole saddle!

[georgew]

The problem of course, does not lie with the rivets but is caused by the leather shrinking as can be seen from the photograph. As a result of the moulding process, all of the natural oils are removed from the leather with the result as seen. Ultimately these saddles, if left untreated will crumble away to dust, something commonly seen with old leather saddles. It's possible to avoid this by treating the area around the rivets with a proprietary leather conditioner (I use "Hydrophane).

[thirdcrank]

I suppose Proofide is intended to help keep the leather supple. That's why I suggested that the large rivets would cover the damage. They certainly wouldn't cure it.

[deliquium]

Having received a little tin of Proofhide from Spa Cycles yesterday, I applied it to the saddle. I'm sure if it could talk, it would have gone oooohhh ahhhhhhh thank you darling! The colour certainly came back its cheeks.

The reason it got in that state was of course water (too much time in cafe's without being covered), zero maintenance and nothing to do with the many 1000 miles of pleasure it gave. I bought it in 1993. I forgot I still had it. The side skirts will have to be laced as it's sagged - and I find the adjustable nose bolt to be of little real use other than a small tweak. Pulling the side in reverts it to its original shape and stiffness.

I will order some rivets from Brooks today and play. All I need to do is cover the rough cracking to save my shorts. I can't actually feel it personally where we contact intimately.

[CREPELLO]

The problem of course, does not lie with the rivets but is caused by the leather shrinking as can be seen from the photograph.

Ah, but I'm fairly sure that the use of larger headed copper rivets is going to spread the load of rivet on leather better and they'll be less likely to "bite" into the leather the way the small steel rivets seem to.
As an analogy when you think of roofing felt nails, the large head holds the felt more firmly without the cutting into the felt that normal nails would incur.

[georgew]

I suppose Proofide is intended to help keep the leather supple. That's why I suggested that the large rivets would cover the damage. They certainly wouldn't cure it.

Proofide, when applied to the topside of the saddle, does not penetrate at all. It's only relatively recently that Brooks have taken to advising that it may be applied underneath, and that was because of the expanding American market not using mudguards.

[MikeMarsUK]

I use a blowtorch to melt it once it is slathered on the top... possibly not the safest technique.

[georgew]

The problem of course, does not lie with the rivets but is caused by the leather shrinking as can be seen from the photograph.

Ah, but I'm fairly sure that the use of larger headed copper rivets is going to spread the load of rivet on leather better and they'll be less likely to "bite" into the leather the way the small steel rivets seem to.
As an analogy when you think of roofing felt nails, the large head holds the felt more firmly without the cutting into the felt that normal nails would incur.

I think it must help, but after some years of use, the leather will eventually dry out and cracks will emerge. I've seen so many old saddles where this has happened and it's such a pity.

[spanner48]

1: There is a guy somewhere in Kent: Tony Colegrave, who specialises in repairing/restoring/rebuilding Brooks leather saddles. Expensive, but good, from what I hear. Try email: <pam_colegrave@hotmail.com>.
2: Re-rivetting with large-head copper rivets will certainly help. Try ringing Brooks themselves. They're very helpful, and may sell - or even give - you the rivets
3: The correct treatment for the leather is Neatsfoot Oil. Applied, not to the top, but to the underside. About once a year or every two years. And not too much; it plumps out and softens the leather wonderfully; but too much, and it all starts to stretch and bag. Proofide does the same, but at ten times the cost, and much more slowly, because it's a solid. Get Neatsfoot Oil from your local 'horsiculture' suppliers.