Surly tandem(perhaps)

[reohn2]

The owner of Santana makes Mr Trump look like retiring monk.

I believe he's quite opinionated.
There's some things on Santanas that are slightly quirky,odd sized seatposts,11/4" headsets(not a problem nowadays but a bit niche 10 or more years ago).160mm OLN rear end is a bit OTT IMHO,145mm is enough.But the build quality is very good.

I rode with a Calfee tandem once, it weighed little more
than my single Atlantis all rounder.

I believe they're rather special,I've only ever seen photos though.

[kylecycler]

We've had a Thorn Discovery(3x9sp deraileur model) 24kg,and whilst I can't deny it was nice loaded,it was a pig to wind up without a load,compared with any other tandem we've owned,which can't be the weight alone,as it slowed down quicker when freewheeling,than any other 700c tandem we've owned that are lighter,and that was with any combination of comparitive tyre and TP's.
The Santana which is a fair comparison is a steel touring tandem with V brakes and an Arai drag brake same as the Thorn and same 3x9sp d/train,weighs in at 18.5kg and will do any road touring the Thorn would,the Thorn scored off tarmac,with bigger clearances upto 1.75in tyres IIRC though we only ever rode it with 1.5inch.In fact the achilles heel of but the Santana and C/dale is clearances,only 32mm with M/guards fitted,thought the C/dale takes a 35mm on the rear.
The Cannondale 1kg lighter due to no third Arai drag,just two 203mm cable discs and no provision for a front lowrider rack.
Both are a delight to ride ,but the C/dale has the edge on low speed manoeuvring,over 5mph there's no difference.
The old S/Gal was a nice ride too but a bit noodly especial loaded.
The KHS childback is a surprisingly nice to ride for a cheap tandem and is fitted with some really nice wheels(40hole 26in Rigida Zac rims and Shimano tandem hubs),but suffers the problem as the Santana at very low speed which is due to a steep head angle and not enough fork offset IMHO,great on the move but mildly disconcerting a very low speeds.
I wouldn't want another Thorn,but then we don't do loaded touring any more.

reohn2 - You might have seen this, but if you haven't I'm sure you'll find it intriguing (as will 531colin, with all his frame design experience, Brucey, and anyone else with an interest in handling and geometry) - a discussion on tandem geometry between builders at Erickson Cycles, da Vinci, Bilenky and Co-Motion. With your experience, you, pwa, scottg and the other tandem riders will be able to relate to the various different approaches discussed:

http://www.thetandemlink.com/articles/headtube.html

I've never so much as sat on a tandem, I just 'know' the theory from reading stuff like that, but for whatever reason I've got a fascination about the things. Just need to find a stoker.

[pwa]

Thorns are about 23kg (large size with the sturdiest "Discovery" frame), just for comparison. But that is only 11.5kg per person, on a heavy duty touring bike that can be loaded up with all your camping kit. Long at the back so the stoker (who can ride more upright, sheltered from the wind by the person if front) has plenty of space.

We've had a Thorn Discovery(3x9sp deraileur model) 24kg,and whilst I can't deny it was nice loaded,it was a pig to wind up without a load,compared with any other tandem we've owned,which can't be the weight alone,as it slowed down quicker when freewheeling,than any other 700c tandem we've owned that are lighter,and that was with any combination of comparitive tyre and TP's.
The Santana which is a fair comparison is a steel touring tandem with V brakes and an Arai drag brake same as the Thorn and same 3x9sp d/train,weighs in at 18.5kg and will do any road touring the Thorn would,the Thorn scored off tarmac,with bigger clearances upto 1.75in tyres IIRC though we only ever rode it with 1.5inch.In fact the achilles heel of but the Santana and C/dale is clearances,only 32mm with M/guards fitted,thought the C/dale takes a 35mm on the rear.
The Cannondale 1kg lighter due to no third Arai drag,just two 203mm cable discs and no provision for a front lowrider rack.
Both are a delight to ride ,but the C/dale has the edge on low speed manoeuvring,over 5mph there's no difference.
The old S/Gal was a nice ride too but a bit noodly especial loaded.
The KHS childback is a surprisingly nice to ride for a cheap tandem and is fitted with some really nice wheels(40hole 26in Rigida Zac rims and Shimano tandem hubs),but suffers the problem as the Santana at very low speed which is due to a steep head angle and not enough fork offset IMHO,great on the move but mildly disconcerting a very low speeds.
I wouldn't want another Thorn,but then we don't do loaded touring any more.

I've only got a Thorn so can't compare, but the lack of speed you describe (downhill as well as up) sounds like it is due to Thorn's use of 26" wheels rather than 700c. Does that sound right?

[kylecycler]

I rode with a Calfee tandem once, it weighed little more
than my single Atlantis all rounder.

I believe they're rather special,I've only ever seen photos though.

Also available in bamboo...

http://calfeedesign.com/products/tandem/

[reohn2]

I've only got a Thorn so can't compare, but the lack of speed you describe (downhill as well as up) sounds like it is due to Thorn's use of 26" wheels rather than 700c. Does that sound right?

For the down,definitely,for the up,yes again made worse by the extra weight.
We bought the Santana whilst we still had the Thorn,it was a revelation,a bit like stepping out of a 4x4 and into say an MX5 or similar.
There was no going back at that point,we sold the Thorn,and after trying out a friend's C/dale bought one s/hand,which was like new .

[pwa]

I've only got a Thorn so can't compare, but the lack of speed you describe (downhill as well as up) sounds like it is due to Thorn's use of 26" wheels rather than 700c. Does that sound right?

For the down,definitely,for the up,yes again made worse by the extra weight.
We bought the Santana whilst we still had the Thorn,it was a revelation,a bit like stepping out of a 4x4 and into say an MX5 or similar.
There was no going back at that point,we sold the Thorn,and after trying out a friend's C/dale bought one s/hand,which was like new .

I'm okay with the Thorn as I see it as being primarily for loaded camping trips. It handles beautifully doing that, and the weight is less than the two solo touring bikes that we would otherwise use. But yes, it is sedate and I would never use it for an audax. I think my Missus prefers doing her own steering, so the tandem gets little use these days.

[Heltor Chasca]

[quote="mercalia"]How many tandems do you see ? I dont think I have ever seen one being ridden

Surly is a volume maker?

Tandems? pah. I passed one of these not that long ago. They were on an off road NCN track. Looked like Mum, Dad, and two teenage sons, but they were going the opposite way to me and I only realised what it was when we had passed.

I occasionally see people on tandems. They maybe less manoeuvrable than single bikes and therefore not used in built up areas, but as I don't own one, (although I know people that do) I don't really have any experience.

wow . just as well they dont have 3 kids

Not a tandem, but this little lady has six...



http://bikeportland.org/2012/06/28/with ... bike-73731

Makes Heltor Chasca look like a big wimp. [/quote]

Yup. I feel like a wimp indeed! [emoji23] I need to up my game. That city of Portland has a lot to answer for. It takes sideways cycling to the limit...b

[reohn2]

reohn2 - You might have seen this, but if you haven't I'm sure you'll find it intriguing (as will 531colin, with all his frame design experience, Brucey, and anyone else with an interest in handling and geometry) - a discussion on tandem geometry between builders at Erickson Cycles, da Vinci, Bilenky and Co-Motion. With your experience, you, pwa, scottg and the other tandem riders will be able to relate to the various different approaches discussed:

http://www.thetandemlink.com/articles/headtube.html

I've never so much as sat on a tandem, I just 'know' the theory from reading stuff like that, but for whatever reason I've got a fascination about the things. Just need to find a stoker.

I don't do technical articles very well,I'm the kind of person who goes on feel.
I just noticed when we bought the Santana(the KHS is similar) that tight manoeuvres when riding very slowly were twitchy and the bike needed 'looking after'.I also had to be careful turning around in a road,if I had a lot of 'lock' on and I wasn't careful the front end wanted to go the wrong way ie;backwards .
Whereas the C/dale and Thorn were much more well behaved.Looking at them side by side the Santana and KHS head angle were steeper than the Thorn,C/dale and Dawes.

[kylecycler]

I just noticed when we bought the Santana(the KHS is similar) that tight manoeuvres when riding very slowly were twitchy and the bike needed 'looking after'.I also had to be careful turning around in a road,if I had a lot of 'lock' on and I wasn't careful the front end wanted to go the wrong way ie;backwards .

The Geordie framebuilder Dave Yates tells a story about a Dawes Kingpin folder he got to sort. For whatever reason, someone had re-raked the fork to the point where it had negative trail! Dave Yates said it was rideable - just - with a firm grip on the bars, but whenever he let go of the bars the front wheel birled around and pointed backwards!

[mercalia]

Not a tandem, but this little lady has six...



http://bikeportland.org/2012/06/28/with ... bike-73731

Makes Heltor Chasca look like a big wimp.

Yup. I feel like a wimp indeed! [emoji23] I need to up my game. That city of Portland has a lot to answer for. It takes sideways cycling to the limit...b

and who said women are the weaker sex? she dont look very athletic, but if the kids are all hers she must be a tough'un

[reohn2]

I just noticed when we bought the Santana(the KHS is similar) that tight manoeuvres when riding very slowly were twitchy and the bike needed 'looking after'.I also had to be careful turning around in a road,if I had a lot of 'lock' on and I wasn't careful the front end wanted to go the wrong way ie;backwards .

The Geordie framebuilder Dave Yates tells a story about a Dawes Kingpin folder he got to sort. For whatever reason, someone had re-raked the fork to the point where it had negative trail! Dave Yates said it was rideable - just - with a firm grip on the bars, but whenever he let go of the bars the front wheel birled around and pointed backwards!

Ours aren't that bad!
In fact on the move they handle very well indeed at speed,it's just tight manoeuvring they don't like.