Which would you go for....or which do you use?
I've spent some time researching the various options for converting the power from my dynamo hub and these seem to be the top three. The Revolution and the Reactor from Sinewave Cycles both seem to use the same technology so are presumably identical in use. They are not however identical in price with the Reactor being a hefty $100 more expensive. Is it worth it? Well it is an incredibly convenient design- however I wonder whether it is as robust as the Revolution. There are very few reviews out there for the Reactor so it's hard to gauge how reliable it might be.
The E Werk can be bought more cheaply, seems to have been around a while longer and there appear to be a lot of people using it. It has the option to change the power settings on it-I'm still unsure how useful this would actually be in practice? It also appears to struggle charging 'some' devices directly and needs a battery pack to be used as a buffer in these cases. Using a buffer battery is all well and good but I understand that a proportion of generated power is lost during this process making it less efficient. The E-Werk may or may not be less waterproof than the Sinewave options.
E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
I have none of them but have researched the topic and will likely go with Busch & Müller when the day comes (not before I embark on a long tour). The impression I get is that their electronics are reliable and properly standards-compliant, and I much prefer the ruggedised housing of the E-Werk and USB-Werk to the alternatives.
By the way, the USB-Werk (not E-Werk) has an integrated buffer battery and makes a lot of sense if you’re only planning to charge things that accept power via USB port. As far as I can tell, the USB-Werk’s battery uses lithium iron phosphate chemistry, which is better suited to the task than other lithium-ion chemistries. This shows the attention to detail that Busch & Müller has applied here.
It is telling that the E-Werk’s real-world applications extend far beyond cycling. It’s popular with people making various off-grid apparatuses involving solar panels, wind turbines, lead-acid batteries, and the like. Have a Google. To me this is again testament to its quality and functionality.
By the way, the USB-Werk (not E-Werk) has an integrated buffer battery and makes a lot of sense if you’re only planning to charge things that accept power via USB port. As far as I can tell, the USB-Werk’s battery uses lithium iron phosphate chemistry, which is better suited to the task than other lithium-ion chemistries. This shows the attention to detail that Busch & Müller has applied here.
It is telling that the E-Werk’s real-world applications extend far beyond cycling. It’s popular with people making various off-grid apparatuses involving solar panels, wind turbines, lead-acid batteries, and the like. Have a Google. To me this is again testament to its quality and functionality.
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Bigdummysteve
- Posts: 353
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- Location: Oxfordshire
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
I have the cinq5 'The plug' like the reactor it fits where the stem cap would fit. It's been faultless but I'm considering selling it and replacing it with a sinewave revolution. While the stem cap fitting is neat I run a with a battery connected to it in a top tube bag, lots of kit need a constant power supply. This takes away from some of the neatness as I end up with a USB lead from the plug into the battery then from battery back to the bar mounted kit. My plan is to use a revolution and battery both in a top tube bag and also to fit the revolution with a jack plug, the idea is to enable the kit to be swapped between two bikes just by removing the bag. Both bikes will be fitted with a cable from the hub which will stay in place on both bikes. I've considered the USB werk but I feel that a revolution and easily available USB batteries and chargers will make for a neat flexible solution. The other consideration with the werk was capacity and life if the built in battery, portable USB chargers are now cheap and easily available( you can buy them in garages now)
The downside to the werk and revolution would be theft but you could easily fit the system into a handlebar bag.
The downside to the werk and revolution would be theft but you could easily fit the system into a handlebar bag.
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
Bigdummysteve wrote:The other consideration with the werk was capacity and life if the built in battery
A key benefit of lithium iron phosphate chemistry is its long service life. The USB-Werk’s battery capacity is certainly very low, though – it’s designed to be a buffer rather than a standalone power source.
My concern with the various USB batteries and cables and all the rest is that they so often don’t meet standards. Then people wonder why their phone – which if Sony or Apple or Samsung certainly does meet standards – doesn’t charge or intermittently charges. Well, that’s why. Besides, I have experience with those batteries and their service life tends to be dreadfully short. In this market, price is the only thing that matters and the battery cells are therefore usually the cheapest the manufacturer can source. Cheap cells rarely last.
I think simplicity is a good goal with this kind of thing. The fewer batteries and cables involved, the better. The USB-Werk with its integrated buffer battery means you can charge devices directly and avoid faffing about with USB batteries altogether.
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Bigdummysteve
- Posts: 353
- Joined: 24 May 2015, 9:29am
- Location: Oxfordshire
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
The USB werk only has a 100mah battery which is tiny, I would still go with the revolution despite the tempting £75 price tag of the werk. Of course you could use a larger battery plunged into the werk which could work out well?
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
Samuel-would you favour the Werk or E Werk? In what way do you envisage utilising the control settings of the E Werk? Would they charge a cache battery faster if set higher?......or would they allow a tablet to be charged quicker? I'm not sure how the settings can be utilised effectively.
I'm a little sceptical of the benefits associated with the Werk as the battery is very small but as mentioned maybe using a different battery would work? However, the Revolution is similar to the Werk and claims to operate well enough without a battery.
Steve-Interesting that you consider the Revolution more user friendly than the Plug/Reactor design (I've personally had to ignore The Plug as it doesn't fit a 1" steerer). Do you always use a cache battery and charge devices from that? I've read that this is is less efficient than charging direct, as a proportion of power is lost in the transfer. Have you found that most of your devices will not charge direct from The Plug? If so, I wonder if this would necessarily also be the case with the Sinewave products-they claim to charge devices directly, making a cache battery unnecessary.
I intend to charge devices in my bar bag and was thinking the Reactor design would be better suited to this. I may also connect the charger direct to my GPS when nothing else requires charging in order to save the batteries in it-the Reactor would be well positioned for this purpose as well. I also keep my valuables in the bar bag and take it with me if I stop at a cafe/shop etc-so an integrated charger like the Reactor would be much better safeguarded from theft in those instances. Steve, you mention using a jack plug with the Revolution- would that enable it to be easily unplugged and taken into a shop for instance? Are there any downsides to using a jack plug (is it susceptible to water damage for example)?
As you can possibly tell, I'm probably favouring the design of the Reactor at the moment. The price tag however is a significant drawback. I'm also concerned about how robust it may or may not be. Steve, have you found that The Plug takes a bit of a battering in the stem cap position or is it not as exposed to knocks and scrapes as it looks?
I'm a little sceptical of the benefits associated with the Werk as the battery is very small but as mentioned maybe using a different battery would work? However, the Revolution is similar to the Werk and claims to operate well enough without a battery.
Steve-Interesting that you consider the Revolution more user friendly than the Plug/Reactor design (I've personally had to ignore The Plug as it doesn't fit a 1" steerer). Do you always use a cache battery and charge devices from that? I've read that this is is less efficient than charging direct, as a proportion of power is lost in the transfer. Have you found that most of your devices will not charge direct from The Plug? If so, I wonder if this would necessarily also be the case with the Sinewave products-they claim to charge devices directly, making a cache battery unnecessary.
I intend to charge devices in my bar bag and was thinking the Reactor design would be better suited to this. I may also connect the charger direct to my GPS when nothing else requires charging in order to save the batteries in it-the Reactor would be well positioned for this purpose as well. I also keep my valuables in the bar bag and take it with me if I stop at a cafe/shop etc-so an integrated charger like the Reactor would be much better safeguarded from theft in those instances. Steve, you mention using a jack plug with the Revolution- would that enable it to be easily unplugged and taken into a shop for instance? Are there any downsides to using a jack plug (is it susceptible to water damage for example)?
As you can possibly tell, I'm probably favouring the design of the Reactor at the moment. The price tag however is a significant drawback. I'm also concerned about how robust it may or may not be. Steve, have you found that The Plug takes a bit of a battering in the stem cap position or is it not as exposed to knocks and scrapes as it looks?
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PhilWhitehurst
- Posts: 260
- Joined: 9 Aug 2011, 4:14pm
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
Or you can go with the luxos U light which has a built in cache battery and USB output.
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
Dave855 wrote:Samuel-would you favour the Werk or E Werk? In what way do you envisage utilising the control settings of the E Werk? Would they charge a cache battery faster if set higher?......or would they allow a tablet to be charged quicker? I'm not sure how the settings can be utilised effectively.
I'm a little sceptical of the benefits associated with the Werk as the battery is very small but as mentioned maybe using a different battery would work? However, the Revolution is similar to the Werk and claims to operate well enough without a battery.
I would probably go with the USB-Werk since it integrates the buffer battery.
The purpose of this battery is to provide continuous charging through intermittent stops of your bicycle (e.g. traffic lights) or brief drops below the minimum speed needed by the generator hub (e.g. climbing steep hills). Many devices do stupid things when their USB power fails (e.g. commence shut-down or illuminate the display or require user input to resume charging) so it is useful to avoid intermittent power failures while charging; the problem is not just that charging stops for a few seconds (which wouldn’t be a problem in itself).
I don’t envisage charging anything that wouldn’t accept power via USB, so the E-Werk’s extra sophistication over the USB-Werk would offer negligible benefits.
You can’t simply increase the voltage to charge a lithium-ion battery quicker. There are serious risks involved in attempting that. Read the section called “Overcharging Lithium-ion” on this page for more information.
My view as already stated is that simplicity is vital. It’s all very well to concoct Armageddon-proof charging schemes while sitting at your desk, but when you’re tired and someone’s waiting on you and it’s starting to rain, your best-laid plans will fall by the wayside. You’ll just want to charge whatever you immediately need – your phone, for example.
However, I have no experience with any of these devices. I’ve just read about them because I intend to get one sometime, to use with my SONdelux. I do have experience keeping things charged on the road, albeit without a generator hub, and I have learned to keep the arrangement as simple as possible.
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Bigdummysteve
- Posts: 353
- Joined: 24 May 2015, 9:29am
- Location: Oxfordshire
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
The plug has been great but I always use a battery as I'm mainly charging an iPhone. This leads to a lot of wires around the handlebars, my thinking with the revolution is that I can put the while system in a top tube or handlebar bag and swap between bikes ( I intend to fit the revolution with jack plug and leave a feed wire on both bikes,the jack plug will be in the bag)
I use my present set up with a 10000mha battery which on very good days can end up fully charged, this can then be used to charge cameras ect in the tent overnight, if you take a small mains charger you can always grab some extra charge if your in a cafe.
The werk looks like a good option if you only need to keep one device topped up but I need a bit more for long trips. On my jogle this year (3 weeks mainly wild camping) I also took a 14wsolar panel and between the two managed to keep charged.
My issue with the USB werk is that the battery is just too small to take advantage of the times when your generating more power than your using, coupled with the fact that it won't then charge again until its internal battery is topped up
I use my present set up with a 10000mha battery which on very good days can end up fully charged, this can then be used to charge cameras ect in the tent overnight, if you take a small mains charger you can always grab some extra charge if your in a cafe.
The werk looks like a good option if you only need to keep one device topped up but I need a bit more for long trips. On my jogle this year (3 weeks mainly wild camping) I also took a 14wsolar panel and between the two managed to keep charged.
My issue with the USB werk is that the battery is just too small to take advantage of the times when your generating more power than your using, coupled with the fact that it won't then charge again until its internal battery is topped up
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
Steve-your intended set up sounds good. I'm not sure whether it would suit me as I would have to disconnect the Revolution and leave the connection wire dangling every time I wanted to remove the handlebar bag to go into a shop etc. That said, maybe that wouldn't be such a big deal.
I'm impressed that you've been able to fully charge a 10,000 mHa battery on a good day. Which battery do you have? I'm on the lookout for a good battery.
Apparently The Plug can charge at full power at slightly slower speeds than the Sinewave or B&M options (about 7mph as opposed to 9mph). If I had a 1 1/8" steerer I would seriously consider The Plug for that reason alone. I wonder if you will notice the difference when you change to the Revolution? The jogle trip sounds good-did you have much trouble finding spots to wild camp in England? It's something I'm intending to do a lot more of
I'm impressed that you've been able to fully charge a 10,000 mHa battery on a good day. Which battery do you have? I'm on the lookout for a good battery.
Apparently The Plug can charge at full power at slightly slower speeds than the Sinewave or B&M options (about 7mph as opposed to 9mph). If I had a 1 1/8" steerer I would seriously consider The Plug for that reason alone. I wonder if you will notice the difference when you change to the Revolution? The jogle trip sounds good-did you have much trouble finding spots to wild camp in England? It's something I'm intending to do a lot more of
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
Dave855 wrote:Apparently The Plug can charge at full power at slightly slower speeds than the Sinewave or B&M options (about 7mph as opposed to 9mph).
Do you remember where you read that? It sounds unlikely to me.
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
Thanks. He quotes some numbers but I’m not convinced he measured its output and compared those against those the measurements of a Busch & Müller USB-Werk.
In the real world (charging devices that complain if they don’t get constant power), I feel a buffer battery, however small, is essential. When you add that you take away from the neatness of the stem-mounted products.
In the real world (charging devices that complain if they don’t get constant power), I feel a buffer battery, however small, is essential. When you add that you take away from the neatness of the stem-mounted products.
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interestedcp
- Posts: 381
- Joined: 5 Jan 2012, 3:34pm
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
The USB-Werk and E-Werk are probably the among the best overall designed dynamo chargers available. They typically comes out on top no matter what parameter is measured, like efficiency (around 80% while other may have as low as 40%), drag when not in use (close to zero Watt while others may drag with 2-4 Watt) etc.
The difference between the two models, is what usage they are optimized for.
The USB-Werk is optimized for direct charging of USB-devices. Typically for riding with a GPS and a smartphone. It's buffer battery is small, but that doesn't matter for the purpose, namely to keep the current smooth and stable, something important for certain USB devices.
It charges adequately from around 8.5km/h, and tops around 20km/h. That means it doesn't deliver much more power above this speed which keep the drag and cost down. In the test below it is around 3W. Not a problem for its intended usage.
It is the "cheap" no-fuzz solution with a minimal amount of cables (no external battery pack).
The E-Werk works as a stand alone USB charger too of course. But its real strength is that it is also optimized for charging battery packs. The variable output means it can also charge eg. 7.2 volt Camera batteries.
It charges adequately from around 7.5km/h, but unlike most other chargers, it doesn't flatten out at higher speeds until unrealistic levels. It has been measured to deliver 14.4W at 85 km/h and is stated to deliver 16W as max.
So the faster you go, the faster it can charge a large battery pack.
For some charging a large charge-through USB powerpack is what they want, other want the simplicity of a all-in-one unit like the USB-werk.
Various test of the E-Werk, USB-Werk and other chargers. In German only, but some of the measurement curves may be of interest:
http://www.nabendynamo.de/service/pdf/r ... eraete.pdf
The "Plug II" seems like a somewhat mediocre design in the above test.
http://fahrradzukunft.de/11/steckdose-unterwegs/
http://fahrradzukunft.de/12/steckdose-unterwegs-2/
http://fahrradzukunft.de/13/steckdose-unterwegs-3/
The difference between the two models, is what usage they are optimized for.
The USB-Werk is optimized for direct charging of USB-devices. Typically for riding with a GPS and a smartphone. It's buffer battery is small, but that doesn't matter for the purpose, namely to keep the current smooth and stable, something important for certain USB devices.
It charges adequately from around 8.5km/h, and tops around 20km/h. That means it doesn't deliver much more power above this speed which keep the drag and cost down. In the test below it is around 3W. Not a problem for its intended usage.
It is the "cheap" no-fuzz solution with a minimal amount of cables (no external battery pack).
The E-Werk works as a stand alone USB charger too of course. But its real strength is that it is also optimized for charging battery packs. The variable output means it can also charge eg. 7.2 volt Camera batteries.
It charges adequately from around 7.5km/h, but unlike most other chargers, it doesn't flatten out at higher speeds until unrealistic levels. It has been measured to deliver 14.4W at 85 km/h and is stated to deliver 16W as max.
So the faster you go, the faster it can charge a large battery pack.
For some charging a large charge-through USB powerpack is what they want, other want the simplicity of a all-in-one unit like the USB-werk.
Various test of the E-Werk, USB-Werk and other chargers. In German only, but some of the measurement curves may be of interest:
http://www.nabendynamo.de/service/pdf/r ... eraete.pdf
The "Plug II" seems like a somewhat mediocre design in the above test.
http://fahrradzukunft.de/11/steckdose-unterwegs/
http://fahrradzukunft.de/12/steckdose-unterwegs-2/
http://fahrradzukunft.de/13/steckdose-unterwegs-3/
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Regards
Regards
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Bigdummysteve
- Posts: 353
- Joined: 24 May 2015, 9:29am
- Location: Oxfordshire
Re: E Werk, Revolution or Reactor
Thanks for the links, Google translates the last 3 quite well, the plug 3 does have much better low speed output than the 2 but I have to say the USB werk looks like a good option for charging a battery pack as long as your battery is ok with a trickle charge. I use a portapow battery
PortaPow 10200mAh Slim USB Battery with Built In Micro USB Cable https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00KZLXUR4/ ... TwbXZSSCN1
This has been great and unlike other batteries is ok withe a trickle charge ( I found some batteries would discharge into the solar panel in low light)
I must stress I don't think I've fully charged this battery from just the hub but a combination of solar and hub has enabled me to roll into camp with it fully charged at the end of the day, wild camping in England is easy, you will soon get your eye in and spot sites. If your wild camping solar can work well as an additional option.
What we need is a handlebar bag with an clickfix connection to the hub output , solar charger in the bag lid and a built in battery. Ride around charging from the sun and hub then detach in the evening with everything still in the bag charging from the stored power.....I can dream. Until then I make do with various lash ups all of which include a battery.
PortaPow 10200mAh Slim USB Battery with Built In Micro USB Cable https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00KZLXUR4/ ... TwbXZSSCN1
This has been great and unlike other batteries is ok withe a trickle charge ( I found some batteries would discharge into the solar panel in low light)
I must stress I don't think I've fully charged this battery from just the hub but a combination of solar and hub has enabled me to roll into camp with it fully charged at the end of the day, wild camping in England is easy, you will soon get your eye in and spot sites. If your wild camping solar can work well as an additional option.
What we need is a handlebar bag with an clickfix connection to the hub output , solar charger in the bag lid and a built in battery. Ride around charging from the sun and hub then detach in the evening with everything still in the bag charging from the stored power.....I can dream. Until then I make do with various lash ups all of which include a battery.