VSF FAHRRADMANUFAKTUR - TX-1000 Rohloff. Thoughts please?

[Brucey]

I stick with 36/36.

well I guessed that would be the case, even though I believe that my suggestion would overcome your primary objection to using a 40h rim on a touring bike. Needless to say it would work for tandems too.

cheers

[reohn2]

I stick with 36/36.

well I guessed that would be the case, even though I believe that my suggestion would overcome your primary objection to using a 40h rim on a touring bike. Needless to say it would work for tandems too.

cheers

The tandem standard used to be 48,and until you've trashed one of them on tour you won't realise how vulnerable you feel when you can't replace it anywhere local!
The experience lead me think through kit and fittings for touring and particularly wheels as without them you're well and truly goosed.
Solo,If I wanted completely bombproof it'd 36/36 spoke Sputniks,Sapim strong spokes or similar on the drive side D/B for the rest,a dished 135 OLN rear wouldn't bother me in the least,for the reasons given previously .
Of course YVMV.

EDITED for typos

[MikeF]

[The extension tiff has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

This looks like a 56 spoke hub to me. Don't expect you find many rims to match while on tour. But then on the other hand if it's just a on a "normal" bike there shouldn't be any problems.

[MikeF]

A lot of comments on pros and cons on various parts and spec, but I couldn't see any by someone who has actually ridden one. IMV You cannot really judge a bike just by looking at specs. That's always the problem and I presume why the OP posted.

[Brucey]

The tandem standard used to be 48,and until you've trashed one of them on tour you won't realise how vulnerable you feel when you can't replace it anywhere local!....

I agree, it would be a nightmare, which is why I think the notion of a double-drilled hub as I proposed (which is something I've never seen BTW) has something going for it.

[FWIW If I really couldn't get a rim of the correct drilling with a standard hub in an emergency I'd fancy my chances of 'doing something' with 'the wrong rim' on the front wheel but it invariably means a load of odd spoke lengths (although you can build radially for a rim brake I suppose). The simplest is arguably building a 32h rim onto a 40h hub because it only needs two spoke lengths and they need not be a long way apart. ]

A double-drilled hub such as I propose would take all that away; you would have the advantage of 40 or 48h rims the rest of the time, but be able to lace a 36h rim in there very easily in the event of an accident or breakage.

BTW the idea that using super-strong 36h rims somehow frees you from worry isn't quite true; you can't get those everywhere either, so if you prang one on tour, the chances are that you will have to carry on by using a weaker rim of some kind anyway.

cheers

[Brucey]

This looks like a 56 spoke hub to me.....

I think it is a 48h hub, that; if you count (say) leading spokes on each flange, every seventh one is a mirror image of the first one, indicating that there are 7-1 = 6 in 1/8th of the wheel.

cheers

[MikeF]

This looks like a 56 spoke hub to me.....

I think it is a 48h hub, that; if you count (say) leading spokes on each flange, every seventh one is a mirror image of the first one, indicating that there are 7-1 = 6 in 1/8th of the wheel.

cheers

I think you're right. I counted the number of spokes around one flange to what looked the half way point, but looking at the direction of the spokes rather than just estimating round the should have been the obvious thing to do. The difference between 12 and 14 spokes obviously equals the difference between 48 and 56. Even so I don't notice many 48 rims being offered for sale, so perhaps they're only found in tandem specialist places, but Spa, for example, offer only 40 hole rim and hubs although SJS offer 48 hole.

[bretonbikes]

This looks like a 56 spoke hub to me.....

I think it is a 48h hub, that; if you count (say) leading spokes on each flange, every seventh one is a mirror image of the first one, indicating that there are 7-1 = 6 in 1/8th of the wheel.

cheers

I think you're right. I counted the number of spokes around one flange to what looked the half way point, but looking at the direction of the spokes rather than just estimating round the should have been the obvious thing to do. The difference between 12 and 14 spokes obviously equals the difference between 48 and 56. Even so I don't notice many 48 rims being offered for sale, so perhaps they're only found in tandem specialist places, but Spa, for example, offer only 40 hole rim and hubs although SJS offer 48 hole.

For what it's worth our hire tandems on a 26" - 36 spoke wheel, which are always carrying camping loads, have yet to break a spoke. The usual hire abuse and on average they do maybe 20 weeks of touring before being sold. In the past I've used Deore hubs on them and ditto - no problems. Our current modified Dawes Discovery tandems use a tandem specific, own-brand 48 hole hub, and though they've yet to break a spoke the bearings are shot after an average of 10 weeks.

[reohn2]

......Even so I don't notice many 48 rims being offered for sale, so perhaps they're only found in tandem specialist places, but Spa, for example, offer only 40 hole rim and hubs although SJS offer 48 hole.

40 and 48's available at JD Tandems:- http://tandems.co.uk/m12b0s95p0/Rims-and-Tyres/Rims
The Sputnik 48's supply seems to have dried up

Mavic 719's used to be available in 40's and 48's but they seem to have stopped making them,and IMHO they were a good all round tandem rim,similat to 217's,of which I have a pair of 48's bought NOS of Ebay .
Shimano tandem rear hubs are also like hens teeth too But I have a spare .

EDIT:- BARGAIN:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NOS-Shimano-T ... SwoydWrPZv

[Brucey]

For what it's worth our hire tandems on a 26" - 36 spoke wheel, which are always carrying camping loads, have yet to break a spoke. The usual hire abuse and on average they do maybe 20 weeks of touring before being sold. In the past I've used Deore hubs on them and ditto - no problems. Our current modified Dawes Discovery tandems use a tandem specific, own-brand 48 hole hub, and though they've yet to break a spoke the bearings are shot after an average of 10 weeks.

I feel slightly happier about 36 spoke tandem wheels if they are 559s. But I wonder what mileage your customers do in those weeks? I've guessing that 20 weeks might be anywhere from 2000 miles to about 10000 miles?

Even so those 48h hubs you have sound pretty bad. What hubs/ bearings/failure mode is that?

cheers

[bretonbikes]

For what it's worth our hire tandems on a 26" - 36 spoke wheel, which are always carrying camping loads, have yet to break a spoke. The usual hire abuse and on average they do maybe 20 weeks of touring before being sold. In the past I've used Deore hubs on them and ditto - no problems. Our current modified Dawes Discovery tandems use a tandem specific, own-brand 48 hole hub, and though they've yet to break a spoke the bearings are shot after an average of 10 weeks.

I feel slightly happier about 36 spoke tandem wheels if they are 559s. But I wonder what mileage your customers do in those weeks? I've guessing that 20 weeks might be anywhere from 2000 miles to about 10000 miles?

Even so those 48h hubs you have sound pretty bad. What hubs/ bearings/failure mode is that?

cheers

I guess the average mileage will be around 200 miles a week, so about 4000 miles of loaded cyclecamping, some of it on bumpy cyclepaths - you should see customers riding off curbs etc - grrrrr! But they hold up brilliantly.

I've not stripped the hub on the Dawes yet (job for the spring) but it's very loose and gritty!

[Nigelrojo]

I wish I'd seen this post earlier in the year. I have a TX-1000 Rohloff and have had it since 2012. I've done 5 summer tours in Europe on it, each one 1000-1200 km. I also use it at home for riding around town, shopping, the odd weekend tour, etc. Would I recommend it? In a word, absolutely. Most of my touring has been on tarmac, but in Germany I did some quite long sections on rough-ish tracks, loaded up (bike and luggage varied from 32 to 40 kg total).

It is built like a tank, and nothing ever broke or fell off it in all those tours. I've only had 2 punctures in 6000 km. The chainring did wear out last year (now replaced with a stainless one); one problem with the Chainglider guard is that you can't tell at a glance if the teeth are worn or the chain starting to get slack. I think it does prolong the chain life though. The BB pinch bolts can also seize up if you don't use copper grease on them, making chain adjustment awkward. The Maguras work very well, although they are currently making a loud screeching noise - that has its advantages, you don't need to use the bell! I am a bit irritated by the lack of mudguard clearance; it can take a bit of fiddling to stop them rubbing on the tyre, and certain types of mud can rapidly clog them up, meaning an enforced stop to poke it out with a stick. The Rohloff makes a bit of a grinding noise in the lower gears (7th is the worst), but I'm told this is normal. Having said that, I'd never go back to derailleurs for touring.

I replaced the cheap standard pedals early on. I also fitted a shorter stem as I didn't like the long reach to the bars - this is related to the issue raised by many people above about the lack of frame size choices. However it is fine now and doesn't feel too big.

Riding it is a bit like driving a big truck; you build speed slowly (and often crawl up hills), but can sustain quite high cruising speeds on a flat smooth surface. I'm not fit enough to sustain 14th (top) gear when fully loaded but can manage 13th. It just feels so stable and comfortable. I like the hub dynamo; I just leave it on the "sensor" setting and forget about it. No fiddling about with batteries, no worrying about lights getting stolen; you know you always have lights when you need them. And the hub has the added bonus of charging other stuff via the The Plug 2 that I fitted. I too wish that it had a 36H rear hub; I see that the new 18-speed pinion-geared VSF TX-1200 has just that. In fact, if I was buying a tourer now, I would consider the TX-1200.

In summary I think the VSF is worth the money, because it is a well-engineered piece of kit, built with quality components. It isn't the lightest bike out there, but its solidity and stability inspire confidence.

[torquerulesok]

I just came back from visiting my brother in Berlin. He owns both the TX-1000 Rohloff and the TX-1200 with the Pinion 18. Having tried both on Saturday, my personal preference is for the TX-1200 and the Pinion (although I'd probably go for a Gates belt rather than a chain). The gearing steps are closer together and more importantly, the Pinion is dead silent whereas the Rohloff is noticeably noisy in the direct gears. My brother said that's a known Rohloff issue and that frequent (yearly) oil changes do keep the noise to a minimum. Even at the minimum, it would bother me...

His TX-1000 runs on 35mm tyres while the TX-1200 was on 47mm (both 700C). The TX-1200 was noticeably better riding on the cobble-stoned streets around his house, but I think that's mostly down to the Crane Creek Thudbuster he's installed. His TX-1000 uses a SunTour suspension seat post.

For touring on dodgy roads either is a great bike. The workmanship of the frame is excellent, and the component quality is top-class.

Just a word of warning: the Fahradmanufaktur UK retail prices are stupid - essentially € for £. I'd not buy one at UK list. Post-Brexit this will become the norm. It might be worthwhile to contact a UK frame builder to see what he'd charge for a similar bike with a made-to-measure frame.

A word of caution: the TX-1200 weighs over 17kg. My Reynolds 531ATB-framed gravel grinder/tourer on 26x50 Marathon Supremes with a derailleur tranny, guards and rack weighs a smidgeon over 15kg. The hub gear set-up adds a lot of weight...

[PH]

A word of caution: the TX-1200 weighs over 17kg. My Reynolds 531ATB-framed gravel grinder/tourer on 26x50 Marathon Supremes with a derailleur tranny, guards and rack weighs a smidgeon over 15kg. The hub gear set-up adds a lot of weight...

Depends what you mean by a lot. I calculated it to be around 400g heavier than a LX triple, significant on a road bike but IMO irrelevant in the context of a 15kg tourer. It certainly won't account for the 2kg difference between the two bikes in your post. My Rohloff tourer is 800g heavier than my derailleur one, it is possible to reverse than with different builds.

[Brucey]

Depends what you mean by a lot. I calculated it to be around 400g heavier than a LX triple..... My Rohloff tourer is 800g heavier than my derailleur one, it is possible to reverse than with different builds.

was your calculation regarding a Rohloff or the Pinion? The TX1200 has a pinion gearbox; not strictly 'a hub gear' hence the confusion perhaps...?

Calculation of either weight exactly is awkward because the Pinion needs a special frameset and the Rohloff often uses a different rear dropout and an eccentric BB. The exact impact on overall weight isn't obvious, because otherwise similar frames are not always made.

cheers