'Refreshing the brand' . . . . . .

Discussion of the re-branding of CTC as Cycling UK.
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leftpoole
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by leftpoole »

I would suggest that CTC is missing a trick or two and should "re-focus it's attentions on those who are not sport (or sportive) minded and become a cycling club".

Hello

I am in full agreement of the above!!
John
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CJ
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by CJ »

puffer35 wrote:I would suggest that CTC is missing a trick or two and should "re-focus it's attentions on those who are not sport (or sportive) minded

I completely agree. Not that anyone is listening to me.

Here's my thinking. You've got to be some kind of cycling enthusiast to join a cycling organisation. Most cycling clubs formed around the thrill of cycling as an end in itself, pure sport, self-improvement, that kind of thing. CTC's enthusiasm on the other hand is for the practical attributes of cycling as a means of transport. A transport of delight indeed, but the cycling nevertheless comes second to where it takes us. That, is seems to me, is what has kept CTC grounded all these years, and what connects us to the everyday transport cyclist, whose enthusiasm for cycling does not stretch quite far enough to join any organisation.

Since the 70s cycling has attracted a new eco-political enthusiasm. This is what drives the cycle campaigning groups that have sprung up since then, and new national organisations such as ENFB in Netherlands, ADFC in Germany and Sustrans in UK. Although they didn't start out that way, all of these organisations pretty soon got into cycle-touring too. Because if you like using a bike for the daily grind, you love going for rides in prettier places at weekends and on holiday. The synergy between travel and transport is totally seamless. Always has been. Tourists and commuters want exactly the same things, and usually are the same people.

Sport cyclists use their bikes for transport too, and even go on what they call tours, but those journeys tend to be re-purposed as training. When I get back from a cycling holiday the first question these cyclists ask me is how far did I ride. I seldom have the answer. But I can tell them how many photos I took! And when the CTC office relocated, doubling my commuting distance, the reactions of my cycling friends and colleagues split into "good for you, extra training" and "oh that's a bit far". I found that a telling example of how the sporting cyclist's enthusiasm takes him onto a completely different wavelength, into a place where most people will not and cannot follow.

The way to bring cycling to the masses is not to increase the uptake of cycle sport, that's never going to happen. Most people are not particularly sporty and will cycle only when we make it more convenient than the alternatives, as well as safe enough. And this is also what cycle tourists have always campaigned for. Whereas the roadie will tolerate traffic for the sake of speed, whereas the mountain-biker gets a kick out of overcoming obstacles, whereas the eco-biker tolerates gravel because it's more natural and whereas the cycling politico tolerates a great deal of inconvenience for the cause: the tourist wants it reasonably safe, quiet, easy, smooth, clean and direct. And before they'll cycle in any number, so does the general public.

The word 'sport' was not anywhere in CTC's aims and objectives until we became a charity. Now it's written through them like Blackpool rock! I was never convinced by the argument that it was necessary to pretend that our cycling is all about sport in order to become a charity. I'm sure that Sustrans doesn't have the promotion of amateur sport in its aims and objectives! But the deed is now done. The way is clear for a sporting takeover of CTC. And whilst a few of the competitive types do appreciate the difference between sport and transport, for every Chris Boardman there's a host of Wigginses and Trotts.

So I'm proud to be 'just' a tourist and proud of what CTC has done under the name of touring to protect cycling as a practical means of travel and transport in spite of the anti-cycling prejudice that is prevalent in all English-speaking cultures. We only need to look at Australia and New Zealand to see what can happen to cycling in a country like Britain which lacks an organised body of stubborn tourists.
Chris Juden
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nez
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by nez »

That's a very good post. I'm proud of being a cyclist who just runs errands and goes for day tours. I'm no one's idea of a sportsman. I wish I lived close enough to work to add that to my portfolio of cycling too.
leftpoole
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by leftpoole »

Hello,
It is not the 'brand' it is the content and volume that matter!
The CTC seems to be run by the 'Government' as it is now funded from Whitehall.
The number of Members is too low to get any major progress done with anything.
The people who 'work on our behalf' are weak in that they are seen as a tiny nuisance and not a big Trade Union movement or similar.
Whenever I see TV with CTC mentioned or someone on there speaking out for Cycling, I cringe with embarrassment as the point trying to be put across is not strongly put.
Cycling is a popular thing these days but still a tiny minority in comparison to other motor vehicles. Cyclists are 'in the way'. I for one 'feel' in 'the way' and I have been cycling 'for ever' and on the road as a Driving Instructor (now retired poor health).
I frequently fear my life will be taken whilst cycling. We as a Nation are way behind other Countries as to a view of Cycling and Britain has not got a clue about cycling.
I wonder why this is?
Answer, idiots riding bikes, in my own area Wiggle and Audax rides en masse. Causing motorists to fume as they struggle (yes) to pass four abreast CTC Cyclists and Audax or Sportive riders.
I for one do not support CTC as a whole, but simply because I want some kind of Insurance. CTC does not help me in any way at all.
CTC Magazine is not worth the paper it is printed on.
At least CTC employs a small number of people on 'good' wages, but people like Chris Juden who 'knows everything about cycles(???)' helps those starting out.
Regards,
John
beardy
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by beardy »

I frequently fear my life will be taken whilst cycling. We as a Nation are way behind other Countries as to a view of Cycling and Britain has not got a clue about cycling.
I wonder why this is?
Answer, idiots riding bikes, in my own area Wiggle and Audax rides en masse. Causing motorists to fume as they struggle (yes) to pass four abreast CTC Cyclists and Audax or Sportive riders.


You are just using these to justify your existing viewpoint.

On the angle of this being a "British" problem, these events that you describe are a pin-prick in comparison to what the French experience with Semaine Federal or the PBP Audax.

As for cyclists causing mayhem on the roads, that takes an extreme form of blindness to the almost constant gridlock caused by cars. On Sunday I cycled past stationary queues of cars half a mile either side of a leisure centre which hadnt opened its gates yet, the cars not involved in the leisure centre couldnt get past at all. They were no doubt irritated but that is part of driving a car nowadays.
From now until Christmas is over, I will do everything possible to avoid taking my car to town all those Christmas shoppers bring it to a standstill, passing an Audax ride is a positive pleasure in comparison.
leftpoole
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by leftpoole »

beardy wrote:
I frequently fear my life will be taken whilst cycling. We as a Nation are way behind other Countries as to a view of Cycling and Britain has not got a clue about cycling.
I wonder why this is?
Answer, idiots riding bikes, in my own area Wiggle and Audax rides en masse. Causing motorists to fume as they struggle (yes) to pass four abreast CTC Cyclists and Audax or Sportive riders.


You are just using these to justify your existing viewpoint.

On the angle of this being a "British" problem, these events that you describe are a pin-prick in comparison to what the French experience with Semaine Federal or the PBP Audax.

As for cyclists causing mayhem on the roads, that takes an extreme form of blindness to the almost constant gridlock caused by cars. On Sunday I cycled past stationary queues of cars half a mile either side of a leisure centre which hadnt opened its gates yet, the cars not involved in the leisure centre couldnt get past at all. They were no doubt irritated but that is part of driving a car nowadays.
From now until Christmas is over, I will do everything possible to avoid taking my car to town all those Christmas shoppers bring it to a standstill, passing an Audax ride is a positive pleasure in comparison.



Hello,
Maybe I am using to justify my own point of view.
As a matter of interest I own a car which I guess is classed as a large car (Volvo Estate) but last two Years have done no more than 1400 miles per annum! I am fortunate enough to have a Bus service where I live that puts Taxis to shame! Yes, a Bus every 10 minutes to more or less anywhere I would wish to go in Dorset!
I see cars as a massive problem, I live near the A35 and through Town (Christchurch) it amazes me how the traffic is a constant never ending queue throughout the days.
PBP Audax ride and trhe LEL in this Country are in my own opinion unsafe. Riders riding half asleep and indeed it is not unknown for riders to fall off or at the very least collapse.
I suffer health problems (Heart) and I do my best as a rider, my enthusiasm never wanes, but my point of view varies according to the weather?
My opinion of CTC never flinches ......
Regards,
John
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mjr
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by mjr »

leftpoole wrote:Hello,
It is not the 'brand' it is the content and volume that matter!
The CTC seems to be run by the 'Government' as it is now funded from Whitehall.
The number of Members is too low to get any major progress done with anything.
The people who 'work on our behalf' are weak in that they are seen as a tiny nuisance and not a big Trade Union movement or similar.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/about-ctc/policie ... d-accounts says CTC is funded by £1.8m of membership fees, £1.1m of grants, £1.1m of sales and services, £1.1m of holidays, £174k of donation and investment income and £36k of other income. Of those grants, some are from private and civil organisations including Asda and Big Lottery. There's an ongoing fund from Cycling England who aren't in a position to run anything any more!

There are a few projects funded by the public sector such as Belfast Strategic Partnership, Transport for Greater Manchester, Lancashire County Council and so on, but I don't see much sign that CTC is really "run by the Government" or "funded from Whitehall".

I share some of the views that riders are being made to feel in the way and some of the doubts that CTC is taking the best actions to change things, but why make wild claims of it being part of some conspiracy?
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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leftpoole
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by leftpoole »

mjr wrote:
leftpoole wrote:Hello,
It is not the 'brand' it is the content and volume that matter!
The CTC seems to be run by the 'Government' as it is now funded from Whitehall.
The number of Members is too low to get any major progress done with anything.
The people who 'work on our behalf' are weak in that they are seen as a tiny nuisance and not a big Trade Union movement or similar.

http://www.ctc.org.uk/about-ctc/policie ... d-accounts says CTC is funded by £1.8m of membership fees, £1.1m of grants, £1.1m of sales and services, £1.1m of holidays, £174k of donation and investment income and £36k of other income. Of those grants, some are from private and civil organisations including Asda and Big Lottery. There's an ongoing fund from Cycling England who aren't in a position to run anything any more!

There are a few projects funded by the public sector such as Belfast Strategic Partnership, Transport for Greater Manchester, Lancashire County Council and so on, but I don't see much sign that CTC is really "run by the Government" or "funded from Whitehall".

I share some of the views that riders are being made to feel in the way and some of the doubts that CTC is taking the best actions to change things, but why make wild claims of it being part of some conspiracy?


Comment regarding the above:-
I was not aware that Supermarkets managed to offset tax by supporting Cycling!
I still feel that once HM Government got its hands on CTC that the CTC was doomed.
Government gives money so they have a claim to what the money is used for?
I still feel that CTC is a weak movement not noticed by anyone except a few cyclists and even then I wonder if the Membership cares much about what goes on behind closed doors??
John
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mjr
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by mjr »

leftpoole wrote:I still feel that once HM Government got its hands on CTC that the CTC was doomed.
Government gives money so they have a claim to what the money is used for?

It doesn't work quite like that: a bit of government advertises "we have £X (or sometimes they don't specify the amount but that can be annoying) to be used for Y" and CTC and other organisations apply saying what they can do about Y with £X, then if approve, they get £X and do it. As long as it doesn't become dependent on a continuing drip-feed of grants from one source, then CTC remains autonomous and can take or leave it.

Autonomy is quite a big concern to the co-operative movement - I believe one rule of thumb is that no more than 21% of your income should come from a single funder. All of CTC's grants together are just under 21%, so clearly it's not getting more than that from government. The only income category over 21% is membership and I doubt any single member is paying the majority of it.

I probably should acknowledge that the other big potential threat to autonomy is charity status, but the charity commissioners have fairly limited powers and the current ones don't seem particularly interventionist.
I still feel that CTC is a weak movement not noticed by anyone except a few cyclists and even then I wonder if the Membership cares much about what goes on behind closed doors??

So how does one improve that? I think CTC should change its fee structure to match its competitors (and kill the money-without-votes affiliate underclass), run membership education events and find a way to fund using its Unique signposting powers to put up CTC-branded route signs, but there's no sign of that.

Instead, I suspect it's more likely to stick its head further up its own rebranding, dropping the historic CTC name entirely and becoming something even vaguer.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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gaz
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by gaz »

mjr wrote:... find a way to fund using its Unique signposting powers to put up CTC-branded route signs, but there's no sign of that...

Image
The "Caution" route, brought to you by the CTC :mrgreen: .
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Bikefayre
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by Bikefayre »

CTC should refresh it's whole ethos and split the club [still be as one] into two halves-one catering for non lycra cyclists, the lower end of cycling and the lycra cyclists that's the much higher end of cycling. So it would be easy for someone to start as a non lycra cyclists then progress to a lycra cyclist or simply stay in whatever side suits them best. Let's hear it more for the underdog cyclists who do not wear lycra.
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gaz
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by gaz »

I wasn't aware that cycling had lower and higher ends, are you referring to recumbents and ordinaries? :wink:

Many CTC Member Groups put on a wide range of rides to cater for many different levels of ability. I'm sorry to hear on other threads of the problems that you've experienced with your own local group and hope you find a way to resolve them.
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nez
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by nez »

I had a non lycra moment today. Went into halfords for a headlamp bulb for mycar. Person behind the counter said 'we fit them for 6.99' I said ' nice idea but I'm on a bike.' She said 'sorry, you're not dressed like it.' I was wearing a coat and jeans.
beardy
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by beardy »

I was rather disappointed when the pub which was the control on an Audax turned me away, saying they were no longer doing food. It dawned on me what had happened as I was walking back to my bike so I returned to the pub and explained that I was an Audax cyclist and was let in and fed.
thirdcrank
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Re: So - is 'refresh the brand'

Post by thirdcrank »

Perhaps they should look at some sort of Assosiated membership (Sorry - couldn't resist it :oops: )
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