Final nail for Armstrong?

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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby TonyR » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:18 am

@Brucey. You could say that since virtually all the top ten placed riders in the TdeF in that period have since been caught or strongly implicated in doping (which is one of the main reasons the titles have not been reallocated) then it was the whole sport not a single rider that was devalued.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby Brucey » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:53 am

TonyR wrote:@Brucey. You could say that since virtually all the top ten placed riders in the TdeF in that period have since been caught or strongly implicated in doping (which is one of the main reasons the titles have not been reallocated) then it was the whole sport not a single rider that was devalued.


I don't disagree with that; since chemical assistance has intermittently or permanently infested cycle sport -since its inception more or less- how indeed can we gauge any past result?

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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby Mick F » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:48 pm

If drug-taking was rife, surely it was a fair contest?
They "all" took 'em, so it's a fair race?
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby Mike Sales » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:01 pm

Mick F wrote:If drug-taking was rife, surely it was a fair contest?
They "all" took 'em, so it's a fair race?


This is a frequent comment.
They did not all take drugs.
There are riders who never had the career their talent deserved because they did not want to take drugs. Some of these we have never heard of. Others are more well known. Graeme Obree joined a continental pro team and quickly left for home when he discovered the drug culture. Chris Boardman never did more than win a few prologues. Christophe Bassons and Fillipo Simeoni spoke against drugs and lost their careers.
The culture of omerta meant that riders did not risk speaking up, because they saw what happened to these two, so we have no way of knowing who was robbed of races they might have won.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby Si » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:32 am

Chris Boardman never did more than win a few prologues.


I think you do him a bit of a disservice there! He did win some prestigious stage races, not to mention medals in Olympics and Worlds(?) TTs, and the hour record, but never a grand tour.

The irony being IIRC that he had to give up because he needed to take banned-list drugs for medical reasons and so couldn't continue with his cycling and have his treatment.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby Mike Sales » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:36 am

Si wrote:
Chris Boardman never did more than win a few prologues.


I think you do him a bit of a disservice there! He did win some prestigious stage races, not to mention medals in Olympics and Worlds(?) TTs, and the hour record, but never a grand tour.

The irony being IIRC that he had to give up because he needed to take banned-list drugs for medical reasons and so couldn't continue with his cycling and have his treatment.


Sorry, Chris.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby reohn2 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:23 pm

But the fact still remains that honest,good,sportsmen never reached what should have been their true recognition in cycle sport due to thieves who stole their
victories! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
That is the tragedy!
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby gerrythemerc » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:37 pm

Surely it is wrong to single out Armstrong as has been done in the sensation seeking media. Overall the riders are victims at every turn and only the few retire with much to show for 15 yrs of hard work, injury, suffering and dedication. Armstrong just did it more professionally and than the French, Italians etc. Its ironic that they couldn't nail him, they tried hard enough, but it took the American legal system to do it. If he had been French or Italian it would not have happened - you all know that. To Armstrongs credit he has used his position to do some good which not many sports celebrities do. As far as I'm concerned the UCI is crooked and guilty of rank hippocracy with regard to this. Ever wondered why Britishriders who joined the Raleigh team under Peter Post didn't stay long ? Peter Post was a 'Six' expert and every body knows what that means. Its been going on a long time but it has just got more expensive,technical and dangerous requiring top medical assistance. Probably no syringes or drips should be allowed for any purpose at any time during a race but how do you enforce that ?
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby Si » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:11 am

gerrythemerc wrote:Surely it is wrong to single out Armstrong as has been done in the sensation seeking media.


Given that reports indicate that Armstrong didn't just use drugs himself but also forced team mates to do so (having those that refused removed from the team) I think that it is entirely reasonable to single him out. Indeed, it has also been alleged that he tried to force some out of cycling altogether. It's the difference between a user and a pusher.
WHAT ABOUT THE FOG? STUCK IN A HOLE? IN THE FOG? STUCK IN A HOLE? IN THE FOG? IN THE MIDDLE O' THE NIGHT? WITH AN OWL! UP A TREE!
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby Vorpal » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:32 am

Mick F wrote:If drug-taking was rife, surely it was a fair contest?
They "all" took 'em, so it's a fair race?


There were many cyclists who tried to make it as pros and didn't. Many. Including some British champions and junior champions. Is it because they didn't take drugs? In a few cases, yes. Maybe some of those who didn't take drugs would have, but they could barely afford to eat, crammed into Belgian flats with like-minded youths and living off winter jobs and race winnings.

There are also many cyclists who did fairly well on the pro scene, but were never big names, never won a stage on the TdF, never won a grand tour....

There will always be people who will stick to their principles and not take drugs. There will always be people who are willing to sacrifice their health and their relationships for the sake of winning a race. But it is not right for those people who are willing to sacrifice themselves for a win, to sacrifice their team mates, as well.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby hondated » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:06 pm

Having read LA'S books and several more about him I thought that I had finished reading about him until several days ago when the wife came in from her trip to the shops.

Well she had called into the local pound shop and seeing a book she thought I would like to read brought it for me and guess who it is about, yes good old LA.

Initially I thought that I would never read it " Lance " John Wilcockson but I have just begun to and its reminded me just how hard LA worked to get to a level of winning races before he began to take drugs.

That' s not in any way trying to justify his actions but to say that he had a lot of ability even without drugs to get to the level he achieved due to a lot of hard work.

Its just a shame he ruined it all by doing what he did.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby horizon » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:19 pm

I think we all confuse (or wrongly differentiate at any rate) the hard work with the drug taking/cheating. The aim is to win. Whether that takes hard work, total dedication, ignoring your children, missing holidays and lunch breaks - or cheating - is irrelevant. If you are driven to win nothing else matters. We are inexorably moving into a winning-is-everything culture - it wasn't always like this. That's why I find cycle racing boring. A sportsperson who rises above the need to win is a rare person indeed but they do exist. And they deserve credit for that, given that winning is what they are supposed to do.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby Brucey » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:34 am

in a semi-conscious state this morning I heard the BBC news which -if my half-sleeping brain got it right- indicated that LA was offered a plea bargain by the US authorities; roughly fess up for one year's drug use, lose that Tour title, keep the rest. Or we'll strip you of every tour title. Which they did.

Not that it makes any difference, but I wonder why he didn't take the deal?

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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby reohn2 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:49 am

Brucey wrote:in a semi-conscious state this morning I heard the BBC news which -if my half-sleeping brain got it right- indicated that LA was offered a plea bargain by the US authorities; roughly fess up for one year's drug use, lose that Tour title, keep the rest. Or we'll strip you of every tour title. Which they did.

Not that it makes any difference, but I wonder why he didn't take the deal?

cheers

Which seems to imply that either he is totally innocent or that if he were to admit to using perfomance enhancing drugs to win a TdeF he'd be guilty as charged.
If the testamony of others in his team is to be believed,it would appear to be the latter.
He's never denied using drugs only that he's never tested positive.
His admission to one TdeF infringement would mean his castle walls would be breached,ATM in his mind they're intact.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Postby Penfold » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:50 pm

BBC sport news page states that LA is due to take part in the Oprah show in the States in the next week.........

His titles and reputation have gone....

THIS is his one chance to give all the details and name names, times, places etc....The only way for LA to win any respect back (IMHO) in the cycling world is to assist all the relevant authorities with busting the drug cheats, be that riders, management, doctors or whoever.

LA simply cant hide his own shameful truth anymore, it's his time to come clean and support the very sport that once put perhaps many millions of dollars in his bank account.

Who knows, IF he assisted the authorities then just some of those agencies taking legal actions against him may even think twice about doing so (Doubt it though, mercenary ******* :lol: )
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