Final nail for Armstrong?

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
Mark1978
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Mark1978 »

Yes, the riders who were riding without drugs. There must have been some? Mustn't there?!
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horizon
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by horizon »

Mark1978 wrote:Yes, the riders who were riding without drugs. There must have been some? Mustn't there?!


That's a good point - but that would be from the viewpoint of levelling the playing field. Why shouldn't they all take drugs (not that I think that they should)? The greatest evidence against all these riders is that they have made themselves ill - easy to prove or disprove I would have thought.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Penfold
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Penfold »

But to carry on that logic, why not introduce EPO etc into all sports....Good grief everyone should have it on the NHS so we can all run/cycle/swim faster !! :twisted:

Its not that everyone was on a level playing field because they were all shooting stuff up their arms, its the fact that the rules say NO!

So the ICU either change their rules so everyone can do it and the best chemist wins; or they sort it out and enforce the rules with merciless actions.

LA got me into cycling because I was just amazed at his story. I thought if he can do that after suffering from that then I can get my fat ass out the house and 'Just do it'

I have watched open mouthed at some of his attacks on the great Cols of the TdF and cheered him home as he's mounted the podium in Paris.

After reading the whole USADA report I feel like I've been mugged. I didn't really want to believe it, but it's all there, the lies, the cover ups, the encouragement of others to take part.

So one good thing LA did? He got me off my ass.
I keep my ideals, because in spite of everything,
I still believe that people are really good at heart.
- Anne Frank

There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is England.
- Winston Churchill
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horizon
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by horizon »

Penfold wrote:But to carry on that logic, why not introduce EPO etc into all sports....



No. Why don't they just see if they are ill to check if they were taking illegal drugs?
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
blaugrana
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by blaugrana »

What Penfold said.

Are people really suggesting that they would prefer it if sportspeople were allowed, in the rules, to use drugs, take blood transfusions etc? Would you encourage a child to take part in a sport where this was the case??

Sport should be about winning, but fairly, not at any cost.

For some of the consequences, listen to Tyler Hamilton's (IIRC, in the 5Live special) description of a night of fever and peeing dark red after transfusing some blood.

Jeff

horizon wrote:No. Why don't they just see if they are ill to check if they were taking illegal drugs?

I'm unsure if this is a serious proposal or a joke.
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Penfold
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Penfold »

Penfold wrote:But to carry on that logic, why not introduce EPO etc into all sports....Good grief everyone should have it on the NHS so we can all run/cycle/swim faster !! :twisted:

Its not that everyone was on a level playing field because they were all shooting stuff up their arms, its the fact that the rules say NO!


My comment was tongue in cheek towards the comments that suggested that everyone was equal because they were all cheating.

I was NOT suggesting we introduce EPO etc into school sports day ({FFE - family-friendly edit }!!)

My hope is that the UCI can start afresh, perhaps with the aid of an amnesty, and enforce their own regulations so us spectators can be 99% sure that the guys we are cheering on are NOT sponsored by Boots the chemist
I keep my ideals, because in spite of everything,
I still believe that people are really good at heart.
- Anne Frank

There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is England.
- Winston Churchill
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horizon
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by horizon »

blaugrana wrote:
horizon wrote:No. Why don't they just see if they are ill to check if they were taking illegal drugs?

I'm unsure if this is a serious proposal or a joke.


It's neither a joke nor a proposal. It's a question.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
blaugrana
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by blaugrana »

horizon wrote:No. Why don't they just see if they are ill to check if they were taking illegal drugs?

I'm unsure if this is a serious proposal or a joke.
horizon wrote:It's neither a joke nor a proposal. It's a question.

Wouldn't this be analogous to testing people for lung cancer to see if they smoke?

One reason for not allowing drugs is that they may be bad for you, when used in ways they have not been tested for etc etc.
Another is that the rules say they're banned. Therefore, to use them is cheating. Hence all the lying-through-his-teeth, denials and bullying by Armstrong (and many others).
Another reason to ban doping is that if all athletes doped it would not be a level playing field. It would be a test of who had the most ruthless doctors, with the least concern for the health of the athletes under their 'care'. It would also be a test of whose body gets the greatest benefit from doping.

I can see why the idea of allowing doping is put forward as a sort of 'devil's advocate' debating point. I am surprised however, if this is really anyone's idea of good sport, fair play or even entertainment.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by blaugrana »

blaugrana wrote:What Penfold said.

I may have expressed myself badly. I meant 'amen to everything Penfold said'. I agree with you, Penfold, and agree with your most recent post too. I think some sort of truth and reconciliation deal is needed.

Calling Hamilton and Landis scumbags, as McQuaid apparently did yesterday, is the latest demonstration, for me, that he is not the person to carry this forward.
whoops
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by whoops »

http://www.epoboost.com/?gclid=CLS8_87xl7MCFXDLtAodKE0AvQ

Wasn't electronic assisted gear changing against man-made rules on the pretext that it takes the skills/talent of riders out of the competition. I wonder what caused the change in that man-made rule? Manufacturers sponsorship/or threats to withdraw monies from the sport? Maybe the companies in the above link could soften the blow in helping to get the rules changed. Then there would be no cheats. Just competitors completing several thousand kms. Armstrong, if you were the only person over the last sixty/seventy years to cheat, then I would be the first to condemn you. But Sport appears to be able to move the goal posts as and when it suits. Remember the days you couldn't show the manufacturer's name on the bike, you had to wear all black, you couldn't race on roads. All rules those rules have been bent. As I said before we have a lot to thank Percy and the BLRC for back in the 'fifties. The man-made rules weren't only changed but the NCU even Changed it's name. Sponsorship!! Who said money doesn't talk? It certainly has changed about everything in sport allround. Maybe, money should be made an illegal substance!
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Penfold
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Penfold »

blaugrana wrote:
blaugrana wrote:What Penfold said.

I may have expressed myself badly. I meant 'amen to everything Penfold said'. I agree with you, Penfold, and agree with your most recent post too. I think some sort of truth and reconciliation deal is needed.

Calling Hamilton and Landis scumbags, as McQuaid apparently did yesterday, is the latest demonstration, for me, that he is not the person to carry this forward.


Eeeeek, yes I rather got the wrong end of the stick, sorry :oops: :roll: I blame Armstrong. :lol:
I keep my ideals, because in spite of everything,
I still believe that people are really good at heart.
- Anne Frank

There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is England.
- Winston Churchill
blaugrana
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by blaugrana »

A pertinent article about possible dangers of doping.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/39997062/

Here are some excerpts:

We have no idea how doping affects athletes, because we have no idea what they take, how much of it or for how long. They won't tell. Researchers won't run clinical trials because giving test subjects the amount of drugs believed to help performance would be unethical.
[...]
Armstrong's ex-teammate Tyler Hamilton has argued quite convincingly that different bodies cope differently with the drugs, and the wealthier an athlete, the more likely he is to get optimal treatment. Armstrong, according to the USADA report on cycling, paid more than $1 million to Michele Ferrari, the Italian doctor who oversaw his training, during their working relationship.
[...]
The dilettante “Just Say Yes to Doping” crowd always seems to forget that health care is not distributed equitably. I once participated in a televised panel discussion with young athletes in the audience, posing questions. A slight football player from one of the most disadvantaged high schools in San Francisco implored the adults to remember athletes like him and protect his right to compete clean. That kid knew what he was facing. If he took steroids or growth hormone and they hurt him, no one would help, or care, or even notice.
[...]
The history of Tour de France champions is spotted with tales of self-destruction and de facto suicides.

About two years ago, three-time Tour winner Greg LeMond and his wife, Kathy, felt compelled to remind people why they opposed doping so adamantly. In an essay on Greg's blog titled “Doping and The Story of Those We Love,'” Kathy recalls a story she had told privately in the past, but has been reluctant to take public. In 1990, a call woke the couple in the middle of the night. The wife of Dutch cyclist Johannes Draaijer was sobbing. She had found him dead next to her in bed. An ambulance was on its way, but she knew it would be too late.
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horizon
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by horizon »

blaugrana wrote:I can see why the idea of allowing doping is put forward as a sort of 'devil's advocate' debating point. I am surprised however, if this is really anyone's idea of good sport, fair play or even entertainment.


I don't know if you mean my question or you mean doping. Nor did I put forward doping as a proposal (devil's advocate or otherwise). I was simply curious as to how the apparent health of those charged reflected the main thrust of why doping is banned. To say that it affects different riders differently or opens the door to excess is a very good answer. And yet it still left the obvious question to be asked - so I asked it.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
blaugrana
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by blaugrana »

horizon wrote:Why shouldn't they all take drugs (not that I think that they should)?

Sorry, Horizon, for interpreting the above (and some others' posts) as a suggestion that everyone should dope.

Regards,

Jeff
Brucey
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Brucey »

BTW for those who missed it (live 15th oct 2012, and on i-player... :oops: ) the Radio five live sport programme 'peddlers - cycling's dirty truth' is available on youtube as a low bandwidth video feed.

I (sadly) almost fell out with one of my best cycling buddies about ten years ago because I had the temerity, the sacrelige even, to suggest that Armstrong's utter dominance in the long term (and miraculous overnight recoveries, mid-tour) were out of kilter with a rider who had shown some promise -but not to that extent- prior to his winning streak, and that this might be somehow chemically assisted.

Whilst most others cheered LA on to further victories, I watched with less than usual enthusiasm, since I felt it was quite likely that these performances might be, well, 'devalued'.

It gives me no pleasure to realise that my suspicions were most likely well-founded.

This does however leave the problem that LA is just the tip of the iceberg; heaven knows how wide and how deep this runs within this (and other) sports.

cheers
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