Final nail for Armstrong?

Now we have something / quite-a-lot to discuss and celebrate.
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Mick F
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Mick F »

It's all over the news today of course, but no-one has mentioned all the other drug-takers over the many decades.

Why aren't they being stripped of their titles and "dragged through the mire"?

Is it just coz LA is the last one?
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Mark1978
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Mark1978 »

It was on the Discovery channel last night at 2am - second part is on Discovery at 2am again.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by cycleruk »

Mick F wrote:It's all over the news today of course, but no-one has mentioned all the other drug-takers over the many decades.

Why aren't they being stripped of their titles and "dragged through the mire"?

Is it just coz LA is the last one?


I presume the others have already been sanctioned (punished?) and have had their titles removed?
Hopefully LA will be the last one but I doubt it. :(
No matter what section of life there will always be someone who cheats/lies to get to the top or for extra gain.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Mark1978 »

As many others have said, this shouldn't be the end of it. He admits it, and then we all move on? It's more serious than that.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Brucey »

arguably Pantani was brought to book. More than brought to book some would say; certainly by comparison with his peers, that was the case. Other have been punished, but many more will escape sanction except that by association. Ultimately any winners from that era will be cast with a shadow of doubt, in professional cycle sport at least.

I actually became so disillusioned with cycle sport in the early 2000s (simply on the basis of what I suspected, which was controversial amongst my cycling chums, and lost me some friends) that I barely took any interest in the TdeF etc some years. For me the shadow was already cast.

LA has been the poster boy for the sport; now he could be the poster boy for punishment, cleanup in the sport, you name it. But he hasn't yet come clean. If he does so, fully, he will doubtless implicate many others who are culpable either directly or by omission. I think there is potentially a dirty stinking mess in the UCI (and the anti-doping agencies they have used which benefitted from his, uh, 'donations') which he could yet expose, and the USADA want him to do exactly that. In the meantime that is his bargaining chip; I'm not sure how he will use it exactly.

cheers
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by binsted »

Mick F wrote:It's all over the news today of course, but no-one has mentioned all the other drug-takers over the many decades.

Why aren't they being stripped of their titles and "dragged through the mire"?

Is it just coz LA is the last one?


Its probably because he has made more money than anyone else out of cheating, and lets not forget if he thought he could continue deny it now he would.

Sorry, no sympathy at all, I feel cheated buying and reading the lies in his books.
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Si
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Si »

The bigger they are the harder they fall. Plus, beyond a certain date there is probably little left in the way of evidence to convict (although I guess that most of the LA evidence was testimonial rather than medical). Plus many of LA's peers have already been banned.

Anyway, we've had the crocodile tears, I now predict that a brand new book will be hitting the shelves soon, along the lines of "It's not about the drugs" telling of how he was really a victim of circumstance, and a hard childhood. When anyone attempts to claim that he is trying to cash in further on his dishonesty and cheating, he'll just say that some of the proceeds are going to charity so it's OK.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Milfred Cubicle »

I've only seen clips of the interview. To be honest, I felt a little sorry for him. I'm going to throw him a party, just to cheer him up a bit. I've got a 'phone box booked for the occasion-should get all of his fans in there.
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Mick F
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Mick F »

Mick F wrote:It's all over the news today of course, but no-one has mentioned all the other drug-takers over the many decades.
Why aren't they being stripped of their titles and "dragged through the mire"?
Is it just coz LA is the last one?
The point I was making, is that some of the old school TdF riders were taking drugs - and everyone knew - and they admitted it - and said that they couldn't do the Tdf without taking drugs. It was rife in the sport, and everyone knew!

Why aren't they all being stripped of their titles too?

Water under the bridge?
LA is just a publicity magnet?
Mick F. Cornwall
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by NUKe »

They are and they have Floyd landis,Alberto contador,Jan Ulrich, All stripped of titles and postions to name but 3
NUKe
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Brucey »

generally any given drug only gets banned once;

a) that specific one is known about and

b) it is thought to be in some way harmful.

So past TdeF wins may have been chemically assisted, and it may or may not have been known about at the time (and only admitted/detected later), or indeed may or may not have been against the rules at that time.

[There is a view in 'professional' sport as a whole that you have only broken the rules if you are caught breaking the rules; hence the 'professional foul' in football, and a whole generation of youths who, seeing their 'heroes' behave that way, seemingly lack any kind of internal moral compass of their own.]

With EPO and several other forms of blood doping, I think that the UCI knew of its use -or should have done- well before the public at large suspected, and firstly probably didn't ban it immediately because it wasn't thought to be particularly dangerous (and surely more, faster, bike racing is always 'better'?....) and secondly failed to legislate firmly against it when they did need to be seen to do something.

In a ghastly compromise, when they introduced the Haemocrit test, they left loopholes in it a mile wide, and emphasised that the 'crime' was to 'fail the test because of the health implications for the rider' not because it was strongly indicative that you were a cheating 'Otis tarda' (look it up). I think it is quite possible that the vested interests in cycling (on all sides including some journalists...) thought that their interests were best served by showing a public face that said 'we're stopping doping' whilst doing, in fact, sod all about it, other than -for show- to victimise a few square pegs like Pantani who got caught. Hence the view of some that their only crime was to get caught 'having air in the tyres or water in the bottle'....

How else do you explain the reaction of 'professional cycling' en masse to Kimmage and others, later, who actually had the nerve to speak the truth?

Armstrong was the most succesful cheater, for sure; but there are/were plenty of others, from all parts of professional cycling , who could and should be exposed.

However given that LA has, even yesterday, still denied certain events which have been attested to by other people who don't have such an, uh... 'vested interest' in the outcome, I am inclined to take his offer to 'co-operate with the authorities' with a pinch of extra-strong salt.

cheers
Last edited by Brucey on 18 Jan 2013, 5:32pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Penfold »

What gets me angry about the whole LA issue is the fact that he almost destroyed the lives of the people that tried to tell the world what he was up to.
The team mates wife, the masseur, the Times reporter, everyone that told what we now know is the truth got the LA threat of a court case and with no evidence then to back up their stories there was no way they could win so they were in effect crushed by this man, his millions of dollars, his legal team and his ego.

Yes I know that many many top cyclists were at it but that just shows how **** poor the UCI testing systems were (are?) but his actions against these people was unforgivable.

His only way to put things right now is to join the UCI and help them by naming names.....Dr Ferrari for example whats his true story in this sorry mess? Only LA can answer that. Team Drs, team mates, team managers, the suppliers of EPO etc who are these people?

It was LA who got me out on my Bianchi bike, I once considered him a hero, I brought his books to read more of the challenges he faced, I brought into the Livestrong charity. I believed all the bull he came out with. I even felt sorry for him when another allegation would pop up.

I feel cheated by the liar that is LA

Sadly he was also interviewed by Oprah who is not know for being a hard hitting journalist (Paxman would have had him squirming)but no doubt his legal team thought she was the only option for such an interview.

So many lies still to be covered.....500 test with none positive over his career when he admits taking drugs throughout his T de F career, how could that happen????
Also why would the governing body, the UCI ask HIM for a donation???? That would not happen, LA is still desperate to try and keep some matters under wraps.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by bigjim »

It's taken some time to come to this where he publically admits his guilt. Time enough to shift his money where all the forthcoming lawsuits will be unable to access it.
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by Brucey »

-and time enough for a statute of limitations to come into play for some of his crimes, some say...

cheers
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Re: Final nail for Armstrong?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Blood doping............transfusing your own, and sinthetic epo, as we know cannot be detected with epo disapearing after two or three days :?: Or tests not developed and accepted as reliable.
Altitude training trys to mimic the above with built in safety on the limit of epo the kidneys produce.
I still believe that training at altitude or high altitude house which enhances red blood cells is in some way is still artifical, because this method would be not available to all, due to cost of even effectivness done by athletes with no additional team backup for monitoring performance.
I am just thinking of those training remotely without even coaching facilites.
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