New tent offer

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dainiusd
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Re: New tent offer

Post by dainiusd »

for same price - Eurohike tents are few grams heavier but builds outside first.
Jamet Dolomite is cool choice, but sold out everywhere :(
PH
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Re: New tent offer

Post by PH »

dainiusd wrote:for same price - Eurohike tents are few grams heavier but builds outside first.
Jamet Dolomite is cool choice, but sold out everywhere :(


So let me get this right;
You make two criticisms of a tent, the first being that it's too heavy and say you can get better for the same price.
When asked what, you suggest tents that are even heavier :lol:
There is an argument about how a tent pitches, like all arguments it has two sides, some manufacturers of expensive expedition quality tents choose the inner first method, so it certainly isn't as clear cut as you suppose.
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: New tent offer

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
The Lichfield Treklite 200 and Vango Banshee 200 is the same design, but more expensive.
NA Thinks Just End 2 End Return + Bivvy - Some day Soon I hope
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dainiusd
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Re: New tent offer

Post by dainiusd »

PH wrote:So let me get this right;
You make two criticisms of a tent, the first being that it's too heavy and say you can get better for the same price.
When asked what, you suggest tents that are even heavier :lol:
There is an argument about how a tent pitches, like all arguments it has two sides, some manufacturers of expensive expedition quality tents choose the inner first method, so it certainly isn't as clear cut as you suppose.


There are three options - light, cheap and good; and usually you can't choose all of them. Really light tent weights sub 1kg, but then it's more expensive. If budget is limited I'd choose the one that pitches outside first over being lighter. You can upgrade to light alloy poles and pegs later. Expensive doesn't mean "expedition quality", it's just manufacturer wants you to think like that... Go out and try pitching it when its 1°C and pouring like hell...
PH
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Re: New tent offer

Post by PH »

dainiusd wrote:
PH wrote:So let me get this right;
You make two criticisms of a tent, the first being that it's too heavy and say you can get better for the same price.
When asked what, you suggest tents that are even heavier :lol:
There is an argument about how a tent pitches, like all arguments it has two sides, some manufacturers of expensive expedition quality tents choose the inner first method, so it certainly isn't as clear cut as you suppose.


There are three options - light, cheap and good; and usually you can't choose all of them. Really light tent weights sub 1kg, but then it's more expensive. If budget is limited I'd choose the one that pitches outside first over being lighter. You can upgrade to light alloy poles and pegs later. Expensive doesn't mean "expedition quality", it's just manufacturer wants you to think like that... Go out and try pitching it when its 1°C and pouring like hell...


Which is a considerably different statement than your original bold claim that the tent was too heavy and you could get better for the same money.
DaleFTW
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Re: New tent offer

Post by DaleFTW »

PH wrote:There is an argument about how a tent pitches, like all arguments it has two sides, some manufacturers of expensive expedition quality tents choose the inner first method, so it certainly isn't as clear cut as you suppose.
[/quote]

They're inner first pitching because they're basecamp tents i.e. not packed up everyday.

Inner first pitch tents in a backpacking/cycle touring scenario are dumb. Why do you people buy this****
Last edited by DaleFTW on 3 Aug 2014, 5:19pm, edited 1 time in total.
beardy
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Re: New tent offer

Post by beardy »

Because it isnt normally a problem.

If it is raining that heavily the inside is going to get wet from the water dripping off me anyway.
DaleFTW
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Re: New tent offer

Post by DaleFTW »

beardy wrote:Because it isnt normally a problem.

If it is raining that heavily the inside is going to get wet from the water dripping off me anyway.


That's not the main issue with inner first pitching - when striking the tent after a night of heavy rain or cold, still (condensation!) conditions, you slacken off the fly, it loses tension and it drapes against the inner, soaking it. Not a problem if you have a chance to dry it out, but multi-day use in bad weather equals nope. With a fly first pitch it's not an issue; you can strike the inner within the pitched flysheet and pack it away without a drop ever getting on it.

When pitching, the fly goes up first, you get in, get changed into your dry kit, get the coffee on then you hang the dry inner up at your leisure.
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Re: New tent offer

Post by PH »

My criteria for buying my last tent;
Sleep across the door
Two big doors, each with enough space for two non intimate people to sit side by side and look out, birdwatching, sunsets, etc...
Good headroom. with that headroom extending for a lot of the area
Near vertical walls, all of them
Free standing, at least free standing enough to be picked up and moved
Easy to put up tight, without requiring frequent adjustments (Something I never managed with the two tunnel tents I've had)
No sagging inner tent
Easy to split and pack the dry inner away from the wet fly

After looking at a lot of tents and talking to a lot of cycle tourists I choose a TN Solar 2.2, if there are outer first tents that also match my criteria at around the same price and weight, I didn't find one. The often talked up problems associated with pitching inner first, including the scenario above, have simply never happened to me in 7 years of camping 25 - 35 nights a year. I've never regretted my choice.

Of course other people will have other criteria, luckily there's manufacturers catering for most and choice is never dumb.
profpointy
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Re: New tent offer

Post by profpointy »

PH wrote:
dainiusd wrote:for same price - Eurohike tents are few grams heavier but builds outside first.
Jamet Dolomite is cool choice, but sold out everywhere :(


So let me get this right;
You make two criticisms of a tent, the first being that it's too heavy and say you can get better for the same price.
When asked what, you suggest tents that are even heavier :lol:
There is an argument about how a tent pitches, like all arguments it has two sides, some manufacturers of expensive expedition quality tents choose the inner first method, so it certainly isn't as clear cut as you suppose.


Isn't it a single skin - and quite heavy - which is quite an achievement. There are some cheap but OK tents to be had, but this is a kid's play tent surely?
PH
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Re: New tent offer

Post by PH »

profpointy wrote:
PH wrote:
dainiusd wrote:for same price - Eurohike tents are few grams heavier but builds outside first.
Jamet Dolomite is cool choice, but sold out everywhere :(


So let me get this right;
You make two criticisms of a tent, the first being that it's too heavy and say you can get better for the same price.
When asked what, you suggest tents that are even heavier :lol:
There is an argument about how a tent pitches, like all arguments it has two sides, some manufacturers of expensive expedition quality tents choose the inner first method, so it certainly isn't as clear cut as you suppose.


Isn't it a single skin - and quite heavy - which is quite an achievement. There are some cheap but OK tents to be had, but this is a kid's play tent surely?


No. That post was in response to a link to a tent with flysheet that weighs 1.8kg, go back a page and have a look.
DaleFTW
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Re: New tent offer

Post by DaleFTW »

PH wrote:The often talked up problems associated with pitching inner first, including the scenario above, have simply never happened to me in 7 years of camping 25 - 35 nights a year.


Yeah, OK.
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pjclinch
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Re: New tent offer

Post by pjclinch »

DaleFTW wrote:
That's not the main issue with inner first pitching - when striking the tent after a night of heavy rain or cold, still (condensation!) conditions, you slacken off the fly, it loses tension and it drapes against the inner, soaking it.


That's also a problem with all-in-ones. Now, you can typically unhook the inner and use it as a fly-first tent in many/most cases, but TBH I just don't bother. So even though I've got a way around it I don't bother, suggesting it's a bit of a non-problem.

There are arguments that inner-first is theoretically stronger if all else is equal, but again the fact that in the Real World some of the most bomber tents are all-in-ones or fly-first rather knocks this in to touch.

In practice, if you're happy with the living space once it's pitched and it's not too much of a pain to pitch or strike it's not actually a big issue, as evidenced by thousands of people not having a problem. Personally I will take all-in-one of fly-first pitching over inner-first, but if I'm honest that's largely being a pedantic purist with design-approach OCD. It's a bit like some people are convinced non-freestanding designs are impossible to use on awkward pitches, while really it's a bit more work rather than the end of the world, and so on.

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DaleFTW
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Re: New tent offer

Post by DaleFTW »

pjclinch wrote:
DaleFTW wrote:
That's not the main issue with inner first pitching - when striking the tent after a night of heavy rain or cold, still (condensation!) conditions, you slacken off the fly, it loses tension and it drapes against the inner, soaking it.


That's also a problem with all-in-ones. Now, you can typically unhook the inner and use it as a fly-first tent in many/most cases, but TBH I just don't bother. So even though I've got a way around it I don't bother, suggesting it's a bit of a non-problem.

There are arguments that inner-first is theoretically stronger if all else is equal, but again the fact that in the Real World some of the most bomber tents are all-in-ones or fly-first rather knocks this in to touch.

In practice, if you're happy with the living space once it's pitched and it's not too much of a pain to pitch or strike it's not actually a big issue, as evidenced by thousands of people not having a problem. Personally I will take all-in-one of fly-first pitching over inner-first, but if I'm honest that's largely being a pedantic purist with design-approach OCD. It's a bit like some people are convinced non-freestanding designs are impossible to use on awkward pitches, while really it's a bit more work rather than the end of the world, and so on.

Pete.


Since I started camping, I've bought fly first tents - Even in my pre-pubescent mind, it just made sense. I've been on trips with friends where we/they have used inner first tents and suffered these problems, as well as others, and it just baffles me why people buy them.

I've been after a proper 2 man tent for me and the girlfriend recently and I've ended up with an original Terra Nova Solar 2. It's narked me a bit that I've had to buy a tent as old as me to get something that is actually useable, but hey ho.

It's been up in the garden for a night and we've used it for two nights this week - already, we've had these problems happen. It's not been a massive issue because we just towelled off the inner for the second night and dried everything off at home the next day, but it does become a problem if you're living out of it long term (Something I assume other cycle tourists do?).

Like you say, inner first tents aren't stronger. The only reason these companies put out inner first tents is because they're cheaper and easier to manufacture. Not that this saving is passed onto the consumer, mind.
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pjclinch
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Re: New tent offer

Post by pjclinch »

Look at a Quasar inner and it's nothing particularly easy to make. And the smooth outer profile will make it quieter in the wind than, say, my Hille Tarra. I'm not sure inner fi rst won't be stronger all else being equal, but there's no problem making a fly-first suitably bomber.

In practice there are plenty of inner-first designs that are popular and successful, and I can't think that would be the case if they were congenitally borken.

Pete.
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