The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

A place to discuss the issues relating to the proposed change in the national CTC’s structure.
Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Jonty »

toontra wrote:
Edwards wrote:I thought the Chairman was openly supporting the yes campaign, basically saying if a proxy was given to him he would use it how he wanted. How can any person who against give their vote to somebody who supports the principle being voted on.

So with the incentive to use your vote being a prize, I also wonder if a lot more people will enter this competition. Is only one entry per household allowed to enter the competition and is there more than one prize. Is it "Yes" I want the chance of a prize or "no" I do not?
Do you only win if you give the correct answer?
If so what is it?


This touches on something I'm uneasy about. The CTC literature is generally promoting the "yes" vote. The vote isn't secret. It's therefore possible to surmise that some members may be tempted to vote "yes" simply to increase their chances of winning the prize.

As is obvious, this is probably one of the most important votes in the 100+ year history of the CTC. Any hint of bias in the voting procedure is a very bad thing. That, together with the significant number of incorrect forms already reported, makes this all look rather shoddy and unprofessional.


Hi toontra
Do you seriously think that members will vote Yes because if they vote No they think they will be excluded from winning a prize? I've heard of conspiracy theories but that takes the biscuit.
jonty
Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Jonty »

The Mechanic wrote:
Guy951 wrote:
The Mechanic wrote:
Selective quotes. it is a pity I have already posted my and it said what you quoted, but also something else. Post a scan of the form and we will all judge for ourselves.

The actual words on the form are:
(at the top) PLEASE TAKE PART - YOUR VOTE IS IMPORTANT TO YOUR CLUB

(in the text) Please vote by putting a cross in the appropriate box...

Nowhere does it even hint at which way to vote, so I was able to vote NO with a clear conscience.

A picture of the actual form was put on this thread...
http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=44707&start=0



I apologise for my earlier comments regarding the wording of the voting form. However, I still maintain that the info I read that came with the Cycle magazine was trying to direct me to voting for the motion. I will have a look as the paperwork I still have and get back to you.


Hi Mechanic
I suspect that no one could direct you to vote in a particular direction even if they tried, which the CTC is obviously not doing.
jonty
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meic
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by meic »

Jonty wrote:
meic wrote:But the whole point of the vote to come, is to dig over old ground.

If it was a clear cut case of the motion being passed by a majority of the members votes I would be voting "Yes" because I would not want to see it overturned on a technicality.
However it is easy to argue that the vote did only win on a technicality.

The rather more important point is the 57,000 or so who didnt vote.

Which is to my mind not compatible with "A majority of members voted in favour of the motion,"


Hi Meic
I suggest that when one talks about a majority of members in this context one is taking about a majority of those who voted. If 57,000 didn't vote perhaps one could reasonably conclude that many of them didn't feel particularly strongly about it.
But I agree with your point that if more members voted in would be a good thing. I suspect that is why the CTC is trying to encourage more members to vote.
jonty


In my opinion that would be wrong and misleading, as I would see it from the same viewpoint as the majority of the membership who like me have limited experience of boardrooms etc.

It would only be a "good thing" if they were voting because they had a view on the issue,
rather than voting for "good things" like lovely Gore jackets.
Yma o Hyd
Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Jonty »

[quote="Edwards"]I thought the Chairman was openly supporting the yes campaign, basically saying if a proxy was given to him he would use it how he wanted. How can any person who against give their vote to somebody who supports the principle being voted on.

The way it works is that all votes against the proposal are counted as No and all votes for the proposal are counted as Yes. Those members who elect to leave it to the discretion of the Chairman then their vote will be cast at the chairman sees fit which, given that the chairman is in favour of the proposal, will probably be cast in favour of the proposal.
This is normal procedure. Some people do elect to leave it in the hands of the chairman for various reasons.
The chairman obviously can't cast any No votes as Yes votes.
Hope this helps.
jonty
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Yorkshireman
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Yorkshireman »

If 57,000 members didn't bother to vote I wonder how many of those members bothered to do any research on the for/against discussions (and where would they look - on here?). In fact what proportion of voters/non voters also looked anywhere other than Cycle (or in their email in tray if they're on t'internet)? As I said ... Just wondering (or rambling :roll: ).
Colin N.
Lincolnshire is mostly flat ... but the wind is mostly in your face!
http://www.freewebs.com/yorkshireman1/
Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Jonty »

[quote="meicIn my opinion that would be wrong and misleading, as I would see it from the same viewpoint as the majority of the membership who like me have limited experience of boardrooms etc.

It would only be a "good thing" if they were voting because they had a view on the issue,
rather than voting for "good things" like lovely Gore jackets.[/quote]

Hi Meic
You have a point there IMO. But surely it's a good thing for the CTC to try and get people to vote? Presumably the reason why so few members voted previously was because many didn't have a particularly strong view on the issue. You can't make people vote but you can give some gentle encouragement. Obviously the possibility of winning a cycling jacket will be a greater incentive vote to some than to others.
jonty
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Si
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Si »

Jonty wrote:
Do you seriously think that members will vote Yes because if they vote No they think they will be excluded from winning a prize? I've heard of conspiracy theories but that takes the biscuit.
jonty


I think that the real issue is not so much that people will be 'bribed' to vote in any particular way, but that people might be tempted just to vote so that they are entered into the competition. Now, having as many people vote as possible is, on the face of it a good thing. But if the majority are just putting a random tick on the form with no thought to what their vote means (whichever way they vote) then it could be seen as a bad thing - do we really want the future of the CTC decided by a massive random number generator. I guess it depends on whether you believe that the majority of the membership are sheep?

It has also been suggested that someone who doesn't want to look into the issues themselves would tend to vote with the majority of the Council who support the Yes side of things, based solely on their trust that the council knows best. If this did turn out to be the case, then it would not, in my mind, be a satisfactory way for the vote to be decided. However, if this does happen then the majority of membership only have themselves to blame and will end up with the CTC that they deserve.

I applaud any effort made by N.O. / Council to get more people interested in the issues at hand and to participate in the process. However, I'm not sure that the offering of prizes is the best way to go about it - I guess it all depends on how much credit you give the average member. However, neither side of the argument seems able to come up with a method to generate a wider interest in this debate, or, indeed, many issues concerning the running of the CTC at a national level. If we could put the same effort into better engagement with the membership that we have into the discussion of this charity proposal, I think that the club would be a lot stronger for it!

-

Regarding votes previously cast at the chair's discretion - just out of interest, does anyone know how many of people who voted in this way have said that they were happy with the chair's action, and how many have said that they were unhappy with the chair's action?
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by meic »

Yorkshireman
Well around here it was a ground swell reaction from individuals, admittedly I am only talking about the people who I know in the local DA and other friends.
I was quite surprised how many people had exactly my view (which is not that of the save the CTC) that we just dont approve on moral grounds and maintaining independence.

The local DA did feel that it was necessary for one of our local members to be able to write an email to counter the view point of the Yes campaign and then left it to the membership to make their own minds up.
Of course those people involved and receiving the email would be around 2% of the CTC membership in our area.
Yma o Hyd
toontra
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by toontra »

Jonty wrote:Hi toontra
Do you seriously think that members will vote Yes because if they vote No they think they will be excluded from winning a prize? I've heard of conspiracy theories but that takes the biscuit.
jonty


It's not a conspiracy theory - it's a comment on the structure of the voting procedure. I'll repeat - the perception is almost as important as the vote itself. Let's face it, we're not exactly coming from a position of mutual trust. That being the case, one would think that the organisers of the vote would go to great lengths to avoid any suspicion of bias.
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Yorkshireman »

meic wrote:Yorkshireman
Well around here it was a ground swell reaction from individuals, admittedly I am only talking about the people who I know in the local DA and other friends.
I was quite surprised how many people had exactly my view (which is not that of the save the CTC) that we just dont approve on moral grounds and maintaining independence.

The local DA did feel that it was necessary for one of our local members to be able to write an email to counter the view point of the Yes campaign and then left it to the membership to make their own minds up.
Of course those people involved and receiving the email would be around 2% of the CTC membership in our area.


Thanks for replying meic. I was wondering/pondering about this voting exercise and how well or otherwise members may be informed about the pro's and con's regarding the merger proposal. The main reason being that over the past year (or so) I have had conversations with about a dozen cyclists (all around my age ie late 60s and older -don't know where any younger ones were :? ), all started due to them seeing the CTC sticker on my rear mudguard. Of the aprox. 12 people 2 were not members at present (but had been in the past) and the rest didn't seem particularly interested or aware of the merger proposals (about six of those didn't have a computer and weren't interested in using one). I don't ride with the local groups (I prefer my own company and (slow) pace when riding) so I don't know what the general view is there (there's nothing on the local websites about the proposed merger). As I said ... I was just wondering ... :) .
Colin N.
Lincolnshire is mostly flat ... but the wind is mostly in your face!
http://www.freewebs.com/yorkshireman1/
Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Jonty »

Si wrote:
Jonty wrote:
Do you seriously think that members will vote Yes because if they vote No they think they will be excluded from winning a prize? I've heard of conspiracy theories but that takes the biscuit.
jonty


I think that the real issue is not so much that people will be 'bribed' to vote in any particular way, but that people might be tempted just to vote so that they are entered into the competition. Now, having as many people vote as possible is, on the face of it a good thing. But if the majority are just putting a random tick on the form with no thought to what their vote means (whichever way they vote) then it could be seen as a bad thing - do we really want the future of the CTC decided by a massive random number generator. I guess it depends on whether you believe that the majority of the membership are sheep?


It has also been suggested that someone who doesn't want to look into the issues themselves would tend to vote with the majority of the Council who support the Yes side of things, based solely on their trust that the council knows best. If this did turn out to be the case, then it would not, in my mind, be a satisfactory way for the vote to be decided. However, if this does happen then the majority of membership only have themselves to blame and will end up with the CTC that they deserve.


I applaud any effort made by N.O. / Council to get more people interested in the issues at hand and to participate in the process. However, I'm not sure that the offering of prizes is the best way to go about it - I guess it all depends on how much credit you give the average member. However, neither side of the argument seems able to come up with a method to generate a wider interest in this debate, or, indeed, many issues concerning the running of the CTC at a national level. If we could put the same effort into better engagement with the membership that we have into the discussion of this charity proposal, I think that the club would be a lot stronger for it!

-

Regarding votes previously cast at the chair's discretion - just out of interest, does anyone know how many of people who voted in this way have said that they were happy with the chair's action, and how many have said that they were unhappy with the chair's action?



It's not up to you to decide whether members are sheep or not and I suggest it's not something you should speculate upon. You seems to have a poor opinion of members and their motivation. If I win the cycling jersey I'll donate it to a good cause. :wink:
Democrary does have its shortcoming. For example everyone who's a member can vote irrespective of their educational attainment or intelligence. But generally I think it's the "least worst" system that's available. Perhaps voting should be resticted to "superior" types like you or even me? :wink:
Even if you got some feedback on this it would be anecodatal and fairly worthless. I'm surprised at the low regard some posters hold about other CTC members and their ability to understand simply voting arrangements. :wink:
jonty
Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Jonty »

toontra wrote:
Jonty wrote:Hi toontra
Do you seriously think that members will vote Yes because if they vote No they think they will be excluded from winning a prize? I've heard of conspiracy theories but that takes the biscuit.
jonty


It's not a conspiracy theory - it's a comment on the structure of the voting procedure. I'll repeat - the perception is almost as important as the vote itself. Let's face it, we're not exactly coming from a position of mutual trust. That being the case, one would think that the organisers of the vote would go to great lengths to avoid any suspicion of bias.


HiToontra
Do you really think that the CTC would risk only giving the prizes to members who voted Yes and thereby exposing themselves to riducle and possibly legal action if they were found out which would be highly likely?
We think we must be on different planets. :wink:
jonty
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meic
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by meic »

No body is disputing that every member should have a vote.

My 3 year old daughter really enjoyed putting her cross in the box. :wink:
Yma o Hyd
Jonty

Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by Jonty »

meic wrote:No body is disputing that every member should have a vote.

My 3 year old daughter really enjoyed putting her cross in the box. :wink:


Excellent. I hope she made up her own mind. If I win the cycling jacket I'll send it to her. It may be a bit big but you are wear it until she grows up. :wink:
Jonty
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meic
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Re: The proposals, benefits, drawbacks etc.

Post by meic »

Thank you, she likes Charity clothes.

Or so I tell her. 8)
Yma o Hyd
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