CTC Membership Services

Anything relating to the clubs associated with Cycling UK
Karen Sutton
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Karen Sutton »

Warning to anyone who renewed their Membership in September. Due to an IT glitch (not just affecting Membership Services but the whole of CTC) many renewals which seemed to have been processed OK were not in fact recorded on the system.

Checking whether your payment has been taken is not sufficient as some members have paid but the payment confirmation was lost and cannot be traced. Membership Services cannot tell who is affected by this as some members may have deliberately not renewed.

So it may be wise for you to check with Membership Services whether you are still listed on the database if your renewal was in September, (even if you have paid). Hopefully letters will have been sent out to those who may be affected but if you see that the payment has been taken you might think yours is OK..
Jamesy
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Jamesy »

Do you think that any non-members reading this thread will be encouraged to join?
What a mess!
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest". Robert G. Ingersoll
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Simon L6
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Simon L6 »

Jamesy - the problems go further than that. Existing members have been discouraged from re-joining when their phonecalls have gone unanswered, or their cards have been messed up.

What's really galling is that at least one councillor believes that this is all just 'anecdotes'. I've been bashing away at this for over three years, and that kind of complacent response is pretty depressing.
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Si
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Si »

I think that if there were a minor problem with the renewals procedure, or, indeed, if there were a major problem that had only just occurred, then it would be in the best interest of the CTC, in terms of getting new members, to deal with the problem quietly and with as little fuss as possible. You will notice that I often advise people to talk to HO/council with their issues as a first step rather than only broadcasting them on a public forum.

But I feel that this issue is a little different. Either there is a major problem (as the report seems to suggest), or there is a widely held perception of a major problem among a sizable part of the membership. Even if it is the latter (please read the document, and look at the minutes of past AGMs ,etc where it has been raised, to decide for yourself) then it really is time that the issue was discussed by all parties and evidence was presented as to what the real case is. This memberships thing has been going on so long, with a "common-knowledge" acceptance that things have gone wrong within elements of the rank and file, and a seeming lack of acceptance, or acknowledgement of the groundswell of concern by those higher up. That is to say, that even if those higher up do not accept that there is a real procedural problem with renewals, they must surely see that their is a perceived problem and if that perception is not addressed then it will hurt the CTC.

It's totally understandable that those in charge want to gather all the facts, think through solutions fully and carefully put together a communication before making any statement, but at the same time, the longer any kind of statement is in coming, the more the rumour-mill will grind on.


And I should repeat that the forum is not an official line of communication with HO or the council - we do know for sure is that HO and the council are aware of the concerns raised in this thread and others like it, and that there has been discussion of them - but that a public forum is not seen as the ideal media to address such concerns due to the nature of debates that can happen on them (i.e. people can get use up a hell of a lot of the CTC's valuable time by being dragged into heated
exchanges, some none to civil as we have seen in the past when discussion has degraded in character assassination).
Regulator
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Regulator »

Si wrote:
... we do know for sure is that HO and the council are aware of the concerns raised in this thread and others like it, and that there has been discussion of them - ...


Indeed they are. Those who have raised concerns about the membership system on this forum (indeed on this thread) were discussed at the Council meeting on Saturday and described, in a public meeting, as "disgruntled ex-councillors" and "conspiracy theorists".

Nice to see that members' concerns are being taken seriously...
Jimmy The Hand
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Jimmy The Hand »

Regulator wrote:Indeed they are. Those who have raised concerns about the membership system on this forum (indeed on this thread) were discussed at the Council meeting on Saturday and described, in a public meeting, as "disgruntled ex-councillors" and "conspiracy theorists".

Nice to see that members' concerns are being taken seriously...

Are you saying that when the membership issue was raised that it was poo-pooed with no discussion, or was it discussed with the above comments made during the discussion?

If it was discussed then your post only helps to flan the flames and doesn't help the debate on this forum, in fact it could sway people from joining CTC, however if you gave an unbiased resume of what was said, including the above comments, that would be a different matter.

As I understand it Members concerns are being taken seriously, it's just the rhetoric from certain people on this forum which is not. So can we have a discussion without the rhetoric please?
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Si
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Si »

I have been given to understand that the issues were discussed, and that other important CTC policy issues raised on the forum are also brought to the attention of those that need to know about them, even if no official response is made to the forum.

There are a number of reasons why official responses are seldom made to the forum and there should be a communication forthcoming explaining them (which will either be made on the forum, or passed to me and I will put it on the forum).

As to stuff about "conspiracies" - it would be unfortunate if the use of such phrases were allowed to get in the way of the discussion of the real issues.
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Simon L6
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Simon L6 »

the words 'conspiracy theory' were not Regulator's. They came from the top table. And I do think that they betray a certain siege mentality.

What's needed here is a bit more openness. Arvato have to be open with the National Office. The National Office and the Council have to be open with the membership.
Regulator
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Regulator »

Simon L6 wrote:the words 'conspiracy theory' were not Regulator's. They came from the top table. And I do think that they betray a certain siege mentality.

What's needed here is a bit more openness. Arvato have to be open with the National Office. The National Office and the Council have to be open with the membership.



You are correct - they are not my words. I actually protested at them being used.

Jimmy The Hand wrote:Are you saying that when the membership issue was raised that it was poo-pooed with no discussion, or was it discussed with the above comments made during the discussion?

If it was discussed then your post only helps to flan the flames and doesn't help the debate on this forum, in fact it could sway people from joining CTC, however if you gave an unbiased resume of what was said, including the above comments, that would be a different matter.

As I understand it Members concerns are being taken seriously, it's just the rhetoric from certain people on this forum which is not. So can we have a discussion without the rhetoric please?


The I'm afraid you don't undertsand the reality. I know that you're connected with a councillor - but you have two ex-councillor and two current councillors, on this thread alone, who have indicated that membership problems are not being addressed - that should mean something to you.

I have raised the membership problems at each Council meeting I have been to - each time I am told that there aren't any major problems and that it will be dealt with by another Committee (Management or Way Forward) or by National Office. As the recent report shows - this simply isn't the case.
Karen Sutton
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Karen Sutton »

Jimmy The Hand wrote:
Regulator wrote:Indeed they are. Those who have raised concerns about the membership system on this forum (indeed on this thread) were discussed at the Council meeting on Saturday and described, in a public meeting, as "disgruntled ex-councillors" and "conspiracy theorists".

Nice to see that members' concerns are being taken seriously...

Are you saying that when the membership issue was raised that it was poo-pooed with no discussion, or was it discussed with the above comments made during the discussion?

If it was discussed then your post only helps to flan the flames and doesn't help the debate on this forum, in fact it could sway people from joining CTC, however if you gave an unbiased resume of what was said, including the above comments, that would be a different matter.

As I understand it Members concerns are being taken seriously, it's just the rhetoric from certain people on this forum which is not. So can we have a discussion without the rhetoric please?



First of all, I would like to point out that what follows is fact, not rhetoric. I have no reason to try to persuade people round to my point of view. My concern is that the truth is known. I am of the opinion, as are others, that Members' concerns are not being taken seriously. If I am to be called, again, a conspiracy theorist for saying this then so be it.

With regard to the comments about Simon,Regulator, hellymedic and myself being Conspiracy theorists, these were made by a member of staff who approached us as the meeting closed. The Forum discussions were mentioned and Helen spoke about her poll on yacf which revealed many problems which CTC members have had recently with regard to their memberships. The staff member agreed that the poll on yacf was of good quality and more or less apologised to Helen. it was clear that the objection was to the discussion on this board. That is understandable as it is CTC's front window, so to speak. I know Si is sympathetic to this view and would like us to shut up and go away. But then how will the truth be known? If the full Council had discussed the Review then I would have more faith in the so called democracy.
Enough Councillors have been persuaded that all is well with Membership Services that it is clear that the members are not going to be made aware of the facts unless someone outside Council speaks up.

I was at the full Council meeting on Saturday, as an observer. I made sure I was there because I wanted to hear Council discuss the Membership Services Review. First of all I was shocked to note than when it came up, several Councillors had not had the Membership Services Review (final), which came out in June. This is the document that was kindly offered to us by Simon. It would seem likely that the Councillors who had seen this document are the ones on the Management Committee. Those who did not have the document were told it would soon be on the website in any case. :o

So, the Membership Services review was raised but it was not discussed. The meeting looked at the minutes of the Management Committee meeting held in September. At the MC meeting the Review was discussed and decisions made as to the next steps. There was a vote on Saturday as to whether Council approved of the Management Committee's decisions on this. The fact that some Councillors had not seen the document would seem more of a conspiracy than what we are saying on here, and of course made it unlikely that the vote was to be an informed one. The reason for not discussing the Review on Saturday was that there was no point wasting time on it as Management Committee had already discussed it and that Council should trust them to make the decisions, then put it to Council to vote on those decisions.

As I was an observer I did not have a copy of the Management Committee meeting minutes. The Councillor on my right did let me follow his though. As I don't have the minutes I can't quote them. I won't try for fear of misquoting. However I will say that the decisions made do not include any action on the part of CTC to enforce the Service Level Agreement which has not been adhered to, nor to address other concerns raised in the Review. So the vote was taken (in favour of course).

So to answer your questions Jim:

The Membership issues were not poo pooed, but were also not actually discussed by full Council so, no, the words conspiracy theorists were not discussed during the discussion. that happened as detailed above.

I am a CTC member, not a member of Council, so my resume is unbiased. Incidentally, David Robinson, Chair of Council, stated that although some Councillors are unhappy about having 50% of the Council meetings in Manchester, rather than all of them in London, is so that CTC members may have the chance to attend, as I do, as observers. So I say to those of you who do not believe reports from those present at the meetings, why not go to a meeting and judge for yourself?
Regulator
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Regulator »

Karen Sutton wrote:
I am a CTC member, not a member of Council, so my resume is unbiased. Incidentally, David Robinson, Chair of Council, stated that although some Councillors are unhappy about having 50% of the Council meetings in Manchester, rather than all of them in London, is so that CTC members may have the chance to attend, as I do, as observers. So I say to those of you who do not believe reports from those present at the meetings, why not go to a meeting and judge for yourself?



Yet my suggestion that Council meetings are held further afield, to afford the opportunity to attend to a wider pool of members, was quickly shot down by the Chairman... :wink:

Frankly, I think we should hold Council meetings all over the country - not just Manchester or London. Let's get out there, be transparent and actually listen to our members.
Jimmy The Hand
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Jimmy The Hand »

Regulator wrote: The I'm afraid you don't understand the reality. I know that you're connected with a councillor - but you have two ex-councillor and two current councillors, on this thread alone, who have indicated that membership problems are not being addressed - that should mean something to you.


I do understand the reality, the reality is that yes, there is a problem with membership services but it is not the major problem you are making it out to be. If you take the OP’s figure of 20 calls a week, over a year that is less than 2% of the membership, and how many of those actually called NO and registered a complaint rather than call the OP and moan that something wasn’t happening as quickly as they wanted it to? The reality is there will always be members who are not happy with the way the club is being run, or that people are not doing what they want done as quickly as they want it done!

Greg, problems with Membership won’t be resolved by castigating councillors or staff on this forum, it will be resolved by people like you working from within council with other councillors and staff over a period of time.

As Si has already said if you have a problem with your dealings with CTC NO then contact your councillor, and if he/she won’t help then contact another councillor or chair of council but don’t just moan on here and expect things to happen, they won’t.
Last edited by Jimmy The Hand on 27 Oct 2009, 4:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regulator
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Regulator »

Karen Sutton wrote:With regard to the comments about Simon,Regulator, hellymedic and myself being Conspiracy theorists, these were made by a member of staff who approached us as the meeting closed. The Forum discussions were mentioned and Helen spoke about her poll on yacf which revealed many problems which CTC members have had recently with regard to their memberships. The staff member agreed that the poll on yacf was of good quality and more or less apologised to Helen. it was clear that the objection was to the discussion on this board.


I have to correct you there Karen. The remarks about "disgruntled ex-councillors" and "conspiracy theorists" occured during what passed as discussion and consideration of the Membership Report (which wasn't actually a full item on the agenda but a 'Matter Arising' from the Management Committee minutes). You may recall my remark about such comments being indicative of the attitude that CTC seems to have to its members.

The member of staff concerned came over after the meeting to assure us they he didn't mean us when he made those comments...

That such a comment was made in a public meeting was, quite frankly, unacceptable.
Karen Sutton
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Location: Greater Manchester

Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Karen Sutton »

Karen Sutton wrote:Warning to anyone who renewed their Membership in September. Due to an IT glitch (not just affecting Membership Services but the whole of CTC) many renewals which seemed to have been processed OK were not in fact recorded on the system.

Checking whether your payment has been taken is not sufficient as some members have paid but the payment confirmation was lost and cannot be traced. Membership Services cannot tell who is affected by this as some members may have deliberately not renewed.

So it may be wise for you to check with Membership Services whether you are still listed on the database if your renewal was in September, (even if you have paid). Hopefully letters will have been sent out to those who may be affected but if you see that the payment has been taken you might think yours is OK..


On Saturday, Regulator asked what is happening about this and whether members affected by this have been contacted. I wanted to know the answer as several of our Member Group are directly affected. One of them has had to get a photocopy of her bank statement to post to Membership Services, in order to prove she has paid her subs. When Greg asked about this in the meeting he was told he already knew the answer. So as I am still none the wiser I have now asked my National Councillor to find out for me. He told me that as far as he was aware most of the missing data has been recovered. Yet I have been told by Membership Services that records of some payments made during that period are still missing. So some members are still recorded as not having paid, even if they have. My Councillor has said he will get more information and get back to me on it.

I had to smile, though, when our new North West Councillor, sitting near me, said that she has had problems with her renewal, and still has an incorrect Membership Card. However as her term as Councillor does not start until 1st January, she was classed as an observer like myself; so could not bring this to the attention of the meeting.
Regulator
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Re: CTC Membership Services

Post by Regulator »

Jimmy The Hand wrote:I do understand the reality, the reality is that yes, there is a problem with membership services but it is not the major problem you are making it out to be.


How do you know that? The fact is that CTC does not collect adequate or substantive data on these matters. When suggestions have been made as to how this could be done, it has been (to use your phrase) "poo-pooed". As I've said before, the attititude seems to be 'if we don't ask the questions, then we won't get answers we won't like and then we can say that it isn't a problem'.

If you take the OP’s figure of 20 calls a week, over a year that is less than 2% of the membership, and how many of those actually called NO and registered a complaint rather than call the OP and moan that something wasn’t happening as quickly as they wanted it to? The reality is there will always be members who are not happy with the way the club is being run, or that people are not doing what they want done as quickly as they want it done!


The reason that the number of registered complaints seems so low is that people are not bothering to complain - they're just walking away. A certain proportion of our 17% churn rate might be down to the curernt economic situation - but it would be blase to assume that all of it is.

And don't forget that one disgruntled person will tell a lot more people than one satisfied person will. If we screw up then we don't just lose one member - we lose potential members.

Greg, problems with Membership won’t be resolved by castigating councillors or staff on this forum, it will be resolved by people like you working from within council with other councillors and staff over a period of time.


What do you think we've been trying to do? We have raised concerns and put forward potential solutions. Yet our concerns are ignored, no proper assessment of the situation is undertaken and the suggestions for improvements aren't even given basic consideration - they're dismissed out of hand.

It seems to me that there is a rump of CTC that would be much happier to see it as a 'Sustrans 2' without the bothersome necessity of actually having to deal with members. I know I'm not the only person who has that fear...
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