Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
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Sweep
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Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by Sweep »

Your advice/thoughts sought folk.

Very possibly some stupid questions in here but I'd rather ask than assume and have problems later. I also need to be clear of my facts as I have more recently got the impression that some bike shops might not really totally be on top of these things or might have their own agendas which causes them to give wonky opinions. And my aim is to think things through, get the bike right and ride it for 20 years without extensive fiddling/respeccing. 10 at least.

Am thinking in the next year or so of getting an expedition bike - expedition as in 26 inch wheels, tough, and specced to cause minimum fuss on the road (or for the rest of its/my life) and to be easily fixed/adjusted on the road if anything should happen. This stuff may happen in some pretty out of the way places with only basic bike shops. I do have other bikes so it doesn't have to do everything.

First - the possibly fraught question of speeds. I have no intention of going 10 speed. So it's 8 or 9.

From what I understand there is no problem running a nine speed chain on a fully 8 speed transmission so in favour of 8 speed would appear to be maximum availability of chains on the road in some possibly out of the way places.

I seem to remember reading that, odd as it might sound, an 8 speed chain can be run on a nominally labelled nine speed transmission. I am pretty sure about the rear derailleur.

Could there be an issue with the front derailleur cage being a bit narrow unless I choose carefully?

As for a 9 speed cassette with an 8 speed chain (which I thought someone said once on here would be no problem) will there be some rubbing because of the slightly wider outer dimensions (as I understand it) of the 8 speed chain? If even the cassette isn't a problem, I am tempted to wonder aloud why 9 speed chains were ever introduced when 9 speed rear cassettes came in. I stress that I would like to avoid even a slight noise/rubbing on the transmission (normal exceptions for non advisable front-rear gear combinations) as it would probably set me tinkering with the indexing for no good purpose. Also, noise must surely equal unecessary wear, which I am keen to avoid.

So will 8 speed give me access to the widest choice of bits on the road or is there no dfference and I can fit either 8 or 9 and merrily pick up either 8 or 9 on the road?

Then to the changers.

After various research, and though I have never used such things (always rapidfire), I have become interested in the idea of using thumbies created from bar end shifters and bar mounts. Both Paul Engineering and St John Street Cycles do such things.

Reasons - simplicity, durability, should last the life of the bike - no issues with indexing going wonky - and though I can sort indexing I always do it with the book in hand. The Paul units do seem to be an outrageous price for a no-matter-how-lovingly turned bit of metal but I suppose it's a small volume market and the set up should be economical in the long run.

Simplicity leans me towards 8 speed.

Folks views of continued availability of 8 speed cassettes (the only potential component that will have issues as I can see) for a tourer/MTB type set up?

Alternatively, in anticipation of a problem down the line with having to move from 8 to the dizzy heights of 9** could I fit 9 speed thumbies and use these with an 8 speed set up by judicious use of the limit screw on the rear mech? This will stop an overshift at the cassette end. Could this be done without harming either rear mech or level if I atempt to overshift to a 9th gear that the stop screw is blocking? See, I said that was a risky question. Polite ansers please.

** I would be moving to 9 speed for continued servicability - not because I needed an extra gear at the bottom - I was in a bike shop th eother day which had better remain nameless (because I like them) and was told that 9 speed was needed for range of gears - even though his suggested set up had less at the bottom than my 8 speed 700C hybrid wth a 42/32/22 chainring and a 34 big cog.
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by Vantage »

I'm no expert but I'd go with 9 speed. And that's despite me currently running 8 speed.
My reasons are that I don't think the wear rates would be significantly shorter on 9 speed, you would be sort of future proofing it for the short term (I can't see 8 speed supplies lasting all that long) and a better gear range. The last point is the important one for me.
My current Mega-range cassette is toothed at 11-34 and the jump from the 34 to the 26 (or is it 27) toothed cog is quite big. Uncomfortably so.
I think 9 speed throws in the extra cog to fill that gap. This is based on Shimano parts, I'm not sure what Campbling or sram are like.
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by pjclinch »

Sweep wrote:
... get the bike right and ride it for 20 years without extensive fiddling/respeccing. 10 at least.

Am thinking in the next year or so of getting an expedition bike - expedition as in 26 inch wheels, tough, and specced to cause minimum fuss on the road (or for the rest of its/my life) ...

First - the possibly fraught question of speeds. I have no intention of going 10 speed. So it's 8 or 9.


If you want something very tough and long lasting, how about 14 (i.e., a Rohloff). Yes, they cost a fortune, but that should last for a long time, as planned for the bike. And you can use a single speed chain and not have any vulnerable derailleurs at all.

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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by al_yrpal »

Buy a second hand Subway 2, plenty around for less than £200. And, they have the brilliant SRAM stuff with very low gearing. Great off road as well with Land Cruisers.

Al
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Sweep
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by Sweep »

pjclinch wrote:
..
If you want something very tough and long lasting, how about 14 (i.e., a Rohloff). Yes, they cost a fortune, but that should last for a long time, as planned for the bike. And you can use a single speed chain and not have any vulnerable derailleurs at all.

Pete.


Sorry - should have said - I have decided on a derailleur system. That's one decision made.
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by Sweep »

al_yrpal wrote:Buy a second hand Subway 2, plenty around for less than £200. And, they have the brilliant SRAM stuff with very low gearing. Great off road as well with Land Cruisers.

Al

:)

ah al, when my email pinged to say that you had replied to this thread I rather thought that that might be your suggestion.

But from what I remember you sold, possibly in bits, your truly beloved.

I also seem to remember that that bike is aluminium and has a suspension fork.

One other thing I should have said - steel and no suspension.

But it's primarily the gearing I am asking about, not the bike at this stage.


all the best anyway
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by mercalia »

well what ever decision u make since u intend it for the long haul, buy a number of drop in replacements as part of your budget. I did this for my RSX system 15 years and glad I did as my 8 speed triple RSX works well enough for me with out the need for trimming and I have a complete spare gear system should some thing go wrong - just replace the damaged bit, rather than try and find some part 10 years on that maybe compatible with the rest.

And also get lots and lots of Clark's chains....
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by PH »

In a different set up (Shimano/Campag mix) I change between 8 and 9 speed depending on what's on special offer at the time. Shimano XT front and rear mechs, Stronglight Impact Chainset, I always changed the cassette and chain at the same time, not because of any compatibility issues but because I tend to run transmissions until they both need replacing, so it made sense to buy matching speeds
On a flat bar, thumbies are by far my favourite shifter, mine don’t have a rear friction option but are so simple to set up I’ve never missed it, though it does restrict me to 9 speed. I have the IRC ones reviewed in a recent Cycle, though I didn’t pay that sort of money for them. If buying now, I’d probably go for the SJS versions, the PCs don’t seem to add much for the extra money.
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by al_yrpal »

Subways have no suspension the forks are steel, the very rigid frame is aluminium. The SRAM trigger shifters and the mechanical disk brakes are excellent.

Al
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by 531colin »

SJS Thumbies seem to me to be in their "remaindered" section just now.
Its in my mind that somebody on here has reported a Shimano lever dropping to bits, with the indexing bit broken......detent ring. or some such?....which was plastic.
Its also in my mind that this was a 9 speed Shimano bar end lever and the 8 speed are more robust, but I'm prepared to be wrong on that....I think Brucey had seen a similar failed lever.....you might be able to find the thread?..found! and its an 8 speed that broke! http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=94397&p=869873&hilit=detent#p869873
Then there is the question of whether downtube levers will fit the thumbie mounts, and if they are more robust......and there are various "aftermarket" thumbies.
I have a stash of 8 and 9 speed cassettes in my loft, enough to see me out, but i don't think I needed to have bothered.....Rose Versand still have 8 and 9 speed stuff at good prices, if you buy enough to cover the postage, and Chain Reaction (I think) have some super cheap cassette offers from time to time, including 9 speed cassettes for junior restricted gear racing which are a source of 13T top sprockets, if i remember correctly......i use the top end of these with the bottom end of MTB cassettes to get a wide spread with no big jumps.
I happily use 8 speed chain on my one 9 speed bike with 9 speed mechs, I think....remember you will have friction front shifting like me so there is no problem, the F. mech. is endlessly trimmable.
And i just remembered you were talking as if 8 and 9 indexing were the same, so you could just blank one gear off 9 and use it as an 8.........not so, I'm afraid.....8 and 9 cassettes are the same width (fit the same hub) so the 9 sprockets are closer together. Its 7 and 8 that are near enough to the same indexing to be interchangeable.
Last edited by 531colin on 18 Jun 2015, 6:07pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by reohn2 »

Sweep wrote:... And my aim is to think things through, get the bike right and ride it for 20 years without extensive fiddling/respeccing. 10 at least.

20 years is a long time to own one bike without some changes.Will a frameset last that long for the type of work you have in mind for it.
IMO it has to be steel for durability and possible repair on tour .
10years is more realistic IMO :)
How much use is it likely to get each year?
How far are you planning to roam,Europe,or the more far flung corners of the globe?

Am thinking in the next year or so of getting an expedition bike - expedition as in 26 inch wheels, tough, and specced to cause minimum fuss on the road (or for the rest of its/my life) and to be easily fixed/adjusted on the road if anything should happen. This stuff may happen in some pretty out of the way places with only basic bike shops. I do have other bikes so it doesn't have to do everything.

So a full on heavy duty tourer?
I'd go with 36 spoke Shimano hubs Deore spec or better.but I'd be inclined to steer clear of hubs with aluminium axles,such as the later XT offerings.
My preference would be LX for non disc and XT M756 six bolt for discs.Sputnik rims are bombproof.
DT spokes are good quality,but I'd talk to a decent wheel builder for which spokes are best .

First - the possibly fraught question of speeds.

So will 8 speed give me access to the widest choice of bits on the road or is there no dfference and I can fit either 8 or 9 and merrily pick up either 8 or 9 on the road?
Simplicity leans me towards 8 speed.

Folks views of continued availability of 8 speed cassettes (the only potential component that will have issues as I can see) for a tourer/MTB type set up?


8 and 9speed cogs are the same thickness and so a 9sp chain runs and changes just as good on a 8sp drivetrain.
I'd go for 9sp not because you really need it but because it's more readily available,cassettes,chains,mechs,but most importantly changers.
9sp is just as robust as 8sp so it's all down to availability of spares in the back of beyond.

Then to the changers.

After various research, and though I have never used such things (always rapidfire), I have become interested in the idea of using thumbies created from bar end shifters and bar mounts. Both Paul Engineering and St John Street Cycles do such things.

Reasons - simplicity, durability, should last the life of the bike - no issues with indexing going wonky - and though I can sort indexing I always do it with the book in hand. The Paul units do seem to be an outrageous price for a no-matter-how-lovingly turned bit of metal but I suppose it's a small volume market and the set up should be economical in the long run.

Have you ever had problems with rapid fire shifters?
They seem to be pretty robust reliable units.
If you go for thumbies, I've heard stories on the forum of 9sp b/end levers going crock due to the indexing detents being made of plastic,so perhaps carrying a r/hand one as a spare could be an answer they don't weigh much anyway.
That said b/ends can be switched over to friction
Thumbie brackets are expensive but you should,barring accident,only need to buy once


Alternatively, in anticipation of a problem down the line with having to move from 8 to the dizzy heights of 9** could I fit 9 speed thumbies and use these with an 8 speed set up by judicious use of the limit screw on the rear mech? This will stop an overshift at the cassette end. Could this be done without harming either rear mech or level if I atempt to overshift to a 9th gear that the stop screw is blocking? See, I said that was a risky question. Polite ansers please.

Eight and nine speed cassettes are the same width across,it's only the gaps between cogs that differ,so limit screws are set the same for both 8 and 9sp cassettes.8 and 9sp rear mechs work with either cassettes.

** I would be moving to 9 speed for continued servicability - not because I needed an extra gear at the bottom - I was in a bike shop th eother day which had better remain nameless (because I like them) and was told that 9 speed was needed for range of gears - even though his suggested set up had less at the bottom than my 8 speed 700C hybrid wth a 42/32/22 chainring and a 34 big cog.

There is a 12-36 9sp cassette,though 11-34 is more commonly available,either with an MTB 22/32/42 chainset will offer a big range of gearing if you need to go that low,but you'll need front panniers to keep the front wheel on the ground on steep climbs :shock: :wink:
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by b1ke »

I've used old Deore thumbies for years. 7 speed with an extra 8th click if you want them indexed. I always go with the friction option. Bombproof and in my opinion, perfect for an expedition bike.
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by Sweep »

Vantage wrote:I'm no expert but I'd go with 9 speed. And that's despite me currently running 8 speed.
My reasons are that I don't think the wear rates would be significantly shorter on 9 speed, you would be sort of future proofing it for the short term (I can't see 8 speed supplies lasting all that long) and a better gear range. The last point is the important one for me.
My current Mega-range cassette is toothed at 11-34 and the jump from the 34 to the 26 (or is it 27) toothed cog is quite big. Uncomfortably so.
I think 9 speed throws in the extra cog to fill that gap. This is based on Shimano parts, I'm not sure what Campbling or sram are like.


Thanks for the reply Vantage.

That cassette is I think the same as one of mine - 8 speed 11-34, in which case, yes, the second biggest cog is 26. Yes it's a big jump but I don't mind so much - my shifter handles it - that 34 is only for use in extremis with the small 22 front cog. I suppose that extra in between cog of the 9 speed does give you an extra cog to wear - spreads the wear more - less use of the 26.
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by Sweep »

reohn2 wrote:20 years is a long time to own one bike without some changes.Will a frameset last that long for the type of work you have

in mind for it. ...10years is more realistic IMO :) How much use is it likely to get each year? How far are you planning

to roam,Europe,or the more far flung corners of the globe?



I don't see why the frame shouldn't last 20 years to be honest - I'm not planning to throw it down a mountain. I would

probably be roaming beyond eastern Europe, the Stans etc if lucky - probably no further than that - the world seems to be

closing up again/getting more dangerous these days.


reohn2 wrote:I'd go with 36 spoke Shimano hubs Deore spec or better.but I'd be inclined to steer clear of hubs with aluminium

axles,such as the later XT offerings. My preference would be LX for non disc and XT M756 six bolt for discs.Sputnik rims

are bombproof.


I specced LX hubs on a 700 tourer after taking note of that change to modern XT hubs. Though apparently the XT hubs have

better seals? An extra rubber boot on the outside? I did have some trouble with a front Deore single seal hub mysteriously

getting some grit in it recently after very little use. I was advised that the cup wasn't too badly damaged and that I

could just replace the cones - the cheapest way of doing this (and also by far the easiest considering Shimano's baffling

range of cones) was to buy a brand new hub and slot a new inside in. This could be a hell of a problem on the road though -

so although both LX and XT hubs are I am sure both excellent for normal use I am still pondering the LX/XT hub issue for

my application. Yes, the bike will have Sputnik rims, at least when it ventures far east.



Despite a big thumbs up for thumbies from b1ke, I must say I am now having very serious doubts about the entire thumby thing

after reohn and colin's posts. That link you posted was somewhat alarming colin, plus the one nested within it - and that

exploded pic of the bits inside one of those levers - I had never imagined that they were so intricate/complicated. Not

sure I can now see much point going down that route, which would be a certain amount of bother and expense, if there is

not a significant simplicity/reliability pay off.

To those who asked (well at least one), no, I have never had any significant problem with a rapidfire unit, even a cheapo one, that couldn't be

solved by - carefully carefully - removing a couple of tiddly screws and squirting some light lube inside.

So am now thinking of rapidfires (!) which would also make the bike more fun for general purpose off road riding - I

suppose I could pack a pair of downtube shifters - I think the Surly Long Haul Trucker has mounts for these and I am also

now thinking of the LHT as the basis for this project. Though it's a bit weighty, I think I'll also be packing my beloved

Park maintenance book - I'm a decent if slow mechanic but always do stuff with the book to hand. With that book and a few

choice tools I think I could probably tackle any non frame related mishap on the road.

531colin wrote:I happily use 8 speed chain on my one 9 speed bike with 9 speed mechs,.

Interesting Colin - so I didn't imagine this. This rather does beg the question though as to why the 9 speed chain was ever needed if the 8 speed chain will pass through an entire 9 speed system, including the cassette. Or have I missed something? - quite possibly - I can be a bit dim ... Many thanks for pointing out the different indexing of 8 and 9 speed - I should have known since I do know that 9 speed cassette cogs are closer together than 8.





mercalia wrote:well what ever decision u make since u intend it for the long haul, buy a number of drop in

replacements as part of your budget. I did this for my RSX system 15 years and glad I did as my 8 speed triple RSX works

well enough for me with out the need for trimming and I have a complete spare gear system should some thing go wrong -

just replace the damaged bit, rather than try and find some part 10 years on that maybe compatible with the rest.

And also get lots and lots of Clark's chains....


Good tip. Not the chains one though :) - careful mercalia - you aren't far from me - we may meet one day :)

Thanks to all for your replies to my musings.

More comments more than welcome of course.
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Re: Expedition bike - all thumbs on 8 or 9

Post by simonhill »

When getting my new LHT built 3 years ago, I opted for Deore for everything apart from the brake arms. XT were said to be so much better and certainly work well.

I was going to get 8 speed as it had been reliable for last ten years, but LBS reckoned it was on the wane and 9 would be easier to get spares. I went for that.

So far done 6 long haul tours, 2.5 months each, total of about 16,000kms and no problems. I replace chain and tyres regularly because I like them new or not too worn when heading off.

Also some about 6,000 kms of local stuff while in the UK.

I am happy to recommend this set up, easy, not too expensive and reliable.

I believe in fit and forget - my LBS fits and I forget!
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