Trailer vs Panniers

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
User avatar
syklist
Posts: 1243
Joined: 19 May 2008, 6:43pm

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by syklist »

Tangled Metal wrote:I've only towed a child trailer (for about 19 months now on and more often off). Having not ridden much for about 2 or 3 months and only a week into a new bike I really struggled up a very steep hill near me towing the child trailer (Burley D-lite 2 child trailer). I had one 13kg child in and a whole plethora of coats for child and both parents, lunch in lots of plastic boxes, bike locks, toys, etc. etc. etc. Riding up that hill on a bike without a granny gear was not much fun. I was even thinking of changing the cassette to have a lower gearing option.

We're down in the 16-17" granny gear on our main tourers. I think that is similar to 22 front 36 rear cogs on a derailleur. I prefer to cycling up hills to pushing bikes up hills.

Tangled Metal wrote:The idea we had was either each of us with panniers and we towed the child trailer with some stuff in as well as the child on a tour or we got a cargo trailer (would have to be burley for the same hitch) and we loaded that. So one person takes the child, the other takes more of a load. The idea is to even out the load according to fitness and strength. Up until last weekend I would have said I was a stronger rider. I am but not when towing the load uphill without the low range gears. My partner is very unsympathetic in that she says I will just have to get fitter or it will make me fitter doing this. Now growing up on top of a steep hill with 1 in 4 or 5 slopes to get anywhere I got used to grinding it out up steep hills. I just wondered if we ditched the trailer and carried kid and kit on the bikes whether that would feel easier? I guess handling would not be fun at all. Especially for me with the lad being so high up, largest size of bike they do means a very high centre of gravity.

We have an absolute minimum stuff for daily use, nappies, change of clothes water and snacks for in the trailer with Junior. Everthing else goes in our eight panniers. Two small at the front, two large at the back one each bike. We also have a bar bag each. We try to avoid taking "extra" stuff just because we have extra space in the trailer. If you are not careful then "extra stuff" will wipe out the advantage of your new granny gear.

Tangled Metal wrote:Common sense tells me extra pair of wheels and the extra weight of the trailer means more drag and effort to ride but something makes me think that the feel of a heavily loaded bike would have an equivalency in the feel to that extra weight. Is that right?

Perhaps a single wheel trailer with child on the bike seat might work, two of these trailers to carry the load and if needed panniers on the bike not with the child.

I don't seem to have a problem with the extra weight of the trailer when cycling, which surprised me when I started towing one. Uphill makes a difference but as I said we have very low granny gears. Personally I don't want kids on a child seat on the bike. It raises the centre of gravity a lot and a child wriggling around in one makes for some interesting handling characteristics at times. Plus bike seat and trailer adds more weight than one or the other. Having one trailer and hitches on both bikes makes it easy to take turns to have the trailer.
Last edited by syklist on 21 Apr 2015, 1:46pm, edited 1 time in total.
So long and thanks for all the fish...
User avatar
syklist
Posts: 1243
Joined: 19 May 2008, 6:43pm

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by syklist »

Tangled Metal wrote:Did you know Burley give a 15mph top speed for towing a trailer? Well that is what it said on the documentation for my D-lite trailer. That is not easy to do with the downhills near me. I checked my strava and my top speed was 24.6mph at one point. I had been trying hard to keep to a slow speed at that time. Earlier on I got to about 18mph then I remembered the speed limit and slowed. After that I was trying hard to slow down on the downhills. Not easy to guess your speed at all. Need to get a speedo quick. My last one was a cateye wireless and it stopped reading long before my bike got nicked with the sensor on it.

Our HEMA trailer had an even lower limit, 20km/h (12 mph) but was quite stable at 35-40km/h on long downhill stretches (with Big Apple tyres). Our new Dolphin trailer is rated to 30 km/h but we haven't had a chance to test stability at speed as yet. I would not like to do a full on emergency stop at from such speeds though, so I only let the speed get up when I am on a clear section of road with good visibility and few side roads. I also take into account wind direction and strength and the road surface. A speedo for your bike is a good idea.
Last edited by syklist on 6 May 2015, 5:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
So long and thanks for all the fish...
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by Tangled Metal »

Well my new bike has 50-34T front and 11-25 cassette (10sp). Not a good tour gearing range but then the bike is really a commuter with light family work. Our usual set up for day rides is child on a seat on my partner's bike with some day kit in a pannier on mine. The trailer sometimes comes along in case it is needed (sleep, wet weather or the child requests it). However I have not got a rack yet for my bike so it was trailer last weekend.

My partner did not see the point in having panniers when the trailer can take so much with the child. However, I did not see it that way shortly after setting off up that steep hill but she did a nice line of saying how much she liked her granny gears. Once she caught up with me that is. I find if you're strugging uphill due to gears and load being towed behind it is best to just get it over with. So I just go head down for it and it is rare indeed that I am ever on hills I don't make that way. It does however hurt the lungs a bit and your legs scream out too. All good exercise of course and I do need to get fit. Think this counts as HIIT? You know where you go at it for a minute as hard as possible then relax and repeat a few times to get a lot of benefit in a short time.

When I was doing 24.6mph I didn't notice the Burley D-lite swaying or becoming unstable at all. My partner was right behind in her usual trailer towing position (right behind to the outside of the trailer in full on maternal protection mode - "slow down!", "you're too near the kerb!", "there's a car coming!" which is about 60 seconds to reach us, etc. etc.). She would have told me if the trailer showed any movement to concern me about. Seriously, she was in full on maternal protection role at the beginning. It was like she thought by riding to the outside corner of the trailer any car about to hit the trailer would get deflected or something by her being there. However she always relaxes half an hour in and I can then start to enjoy the ride. I think it takes that long for her to realise most cars and other behicles see the trailer and give it a wide berth. The thing must have something to do with them realising a child is in there. That did surprise me the first time I went out with him in the trailer. On my own when he was very young. Ok going one way (about 2 miles almost all uphill) but coming down I think I scared him and had to stop halfway to call his mother to bring the car for him. Reckon that was only going at 15mph or less since i think i had a speedo then.
User avatar
syklist
Posts: 1243
Joined: 19 May 2008, 6:43pm

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by syklist »

Tangled Metal wrote:Well my new bike has 50-34T front and 11-25 cassette (10sp). Not a good tour gearing range but then the bike is really a commuter with light family work. Our usual set up for day rides is child on a seat on my partner's bike with some day kit in a pannier on mine. The trailer sometimes comes along in case it is needed (sleep, wet weather or the child requests it). However I have not got a rack yet for my bike so it was trailer last weekend.

We would not manage touring fully laden with the gear range you have. We wouldn't even get up the first small incline outside our house :)

Tangled Metal wrote:My partner did not see the point in having panniers when the trailer can take so much with the child...
<snipped>

1) It is raining heavily when you get to the campsite. You put the tent up quickly. How do you get all the stuff out of the trailer and into the tent without getting everything wet? Panniers can be put in the tent vestibule very quickly, the top of the pannier wiped dry and then the contents emptied at your leisure into the inner tent (assuming waterproof panniers like Orliebs).
2) Junior is sleeping when you need to get something out of the trailer. He happens to be leaning on the thing you need right now. Or just opening the canopy wakes Junior (pulling apart velcro is particularly good for waking up sleeping babies).
3) You have filled up both the luggage compartment and surrounded Junior with stuff. You have a minor off and the trailer rolls, what happens to the stuff you have placed round Junior? Did you put your toolkit/Trangia/tent poles in with Junior?
4) You end up having to take the train. Could you lift the trailer into the train with all of that stuff in it? Panniers can be removed and moved easily and never weigh anything like as much as an empty trailer.
5) The conductor insists that you have to fold your trailer as there is not much space in the goods wagon. You have to empty the trailer to be able to fold it. What do you do with all the stuff in the trailer?
So long and thanks for all the fish...
mercalia
Posts: 14630
Joined: 22 Sep 2013, 10:03pm
Location: london South

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by mercalia »

LollyKat
Posts: 3250
Joined: 28 May 2011, 11:25pm
Location: Scotland

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by LollyKat »

Where is Mick F? I thought he would have been along by now.
ferdinand
Posts: 376
Joined: 31 Oct 2014, 6:59pm

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by ferdinand »

I make that gear range something like 37" to 125" based on 700c wheels, which is ridiculous, or perhaps 5-10% lower on 26", which is still ridiculous :-).

I think my first suggestion would be, rather than swapping out your cassette, also consider swapping out your chain set for an MTB one or even a triple. I did this at Christmas and ended up with a 42-28 instead of 50-34, which gave me a 22" gear for touring and the Peak District. It was a revelation.

My second suggestion would be to consider an e-bike or two, or a mod kit, which takes an adjustable part of the pedal effort, and is particularly useful for keeping steep hills and heavy loads within normal limitations? Assistance is normally limited to about 16.5mph, so is in your preferred speed range. You'll need to do some homework and playing around first, though.

My third suggestion would o be an equal opportunities cyclist, and encourage your partner to take some more load while you "get fit". Good luck with that !

Ferdinand
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by Tangled Metal »

ferdinand wrote:My third suggestion would o be an equal opportunities cyclist, and encourage your partner to take some more load while you "get fit". Good luck with that !

Ferdinand

Luck? Need it to get that. Although to be fair it is probably as much my male pride that I take more of the load. She is the one with any touring experience (I have none so far). Touring the likes of China for 3 months self supported going cross country, plus south america, eastern Europe and IIRC Malaysia too you tend to be capable of carrying a load I think. China was done in a locally made bike too.

Last Sunday was really a case of me pulling everything including my 13kg son. We seriously did not expect him to last long in the trailer so the load was expected to be evened out that trip but he insisted on staying in the trailer. Never had that before so we took that as a kind of victory and a kind of good foreboding for the touring idea. Last year we didn't feel like we were able to tour because he was not happy to go for a trip solely in the trailer. If he is accepting, even preferring the trailer it makes things easier for a tour i think. Of course that means we will have to even out the load better. My idea is a cargo trailer and a child trailer split between us. That way we could have a more even load split. The alternative is we both have panniers and I have the trailer. I doubt that would end up being as even a split somehow.

I am out of my old levels of fitness and suspect once that slope would not have been as much of an issue even with the trailer load weight. Plus I had to stop near the start of it (part way up the steepest part) due to a problem with my clothing. Starting off was nearly impossible but I managed it, took a lot off effort and set me off badly for the rest of the slope. Plus the hill was immediately after a slow turn into the side road. You can not maintain any speed because of the 90 degrees turn and also before the turn it was a bit of a rise down a single carriage road with cars going opposite ways having to pull in to get past each other. Not an easy way to go even if better load split was possible.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by Vorpal »

Mr. V doesn't cycle much, so I have always hauled the extra load, trailer, kids, whatever... I still let him set the pace, except on the hills, where, especially with the tandem, I go at whatever pace I think will get me up the hill, and if we are separated, we can rejoin each other at the top.

I don't mind, but I wouldn't do it without properly low gears.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by Tangled Metal »

I've always been one to mash it with higher gears. That was ever since getting my first road bike at 17 whilst living on top of a hill with 1 in 4 slopes up most routes I took to get home. The road bike must have been highly geared too. I certainly struggled a bit when I first got it. I have that bike still and rode it for about 22 or 23 years. I guess with only 14 gears and no granny gear at all makes you strong.

More recently I used to go to the gym a lot and leg press over 525lb for fun (couldn't increase the weights as I had run out so had to do about 20 reps in about 5 sets to feel like I had worked out those muscles. I have lost a hell of a lot of leg strength and fitness since I met my partner and we had a kid though (different priorities). Back in the day I would still have felt that hill with the load but I would have cruised it a bit. Even just 3 years ago it was unusual for me to struggle on steep hills. I have had about 2 orf 3 months out and I did read an article where an expert un fitness said it takes about 3 times as long to get back to your old level as the time you were out of action. Not sure how right but when I had to take a few weeks out in the past for knee trouble I found it was a few months to get back to where I was.

Right now I am about 3 months out of commuting and cycling for fun and fitness. Before that break I was actually on a major plateau in performance (well even dropped a bit and was struggling). So now with a new bike I need to get used to it and also re-gain and improve on my previous fitness levels. I guess I am on a low level and even with a week and a half back on my bike commuting my commute times and speeds have gone from nearly 40 minutes and 10mph to 30 minutes and about 15mph at my recent best time. I find that is often the case, rapid initial progress then plateau and even a tailing off of performance. Intend to get a HRM and try to take it seriously this time. Although my training time is limited to two half hour to 35 minute commutes each week day. At other times it is family stuff and easy rides with family (or other jobs and activities off the bike).
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by Vorpal »

Tangled Metal wrote:I've always been one to mash it with higher gears. ... More recently I used to go to the gym a lot and leg press over 525lb for fun ...
I had to take a few weeks out in the past for knee trouble

Could there be a relationship? ;)
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by Tangled Metal »

Actually the 525lb leg press came from a year or two of going a lot to the gym and walking in the hills too. At that time my poor old bike had about 3 or 4 years with at most 2 or 3 outings a year. I feel really bad for my old faithful steed looking back. It was a £450 Reynolds tubed road bike weighing 9.5 kg actual weight for a XL size and is now about 25 years old. It has never given me any problems until about 4 years ago I realised I could not remember when I had changed the brake blocks as I was accelerating down a steep hill with my brake levers being squeezed as hard as I could (until my knuckles were white) just before a sharp right turn. Shortly after that my quill steerer just became a bit dodgy and indeed scary so I stopped riding it.

That old bike, looking back at it, never caused me any trouble in at leat 21 years of on and off use. It never creaked, broke anything and even the wheels were easy to true by eye when they did go out of true on the dodgy roads near work. I hear other cyclists go past making a bit of a racket and they never seemed phased by the noise. When I rode that old bike it only had a little bit of road noise and the wind through the wheels. no creak from pedals, gears, chains or anything. All that reliability for £450 25 years ago. I wonder what price that works out now? Was sold as a race ready road bike.
User avatar
Mick F
Spambuster
Posts: 56359
Joined: 7 Jan 2007, 11:24am
Location: Tamar Valley, Cornwall

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by Mick F »

Tangled Metal wrote:I'm curious to know, is it easier to tow kit in a trailer or on the bike? Imagine same load fixed on the bike in panniers, rack bag, bar bag, etc. Or the same load in a trailer being towed behind. Which is going to tire you out quicker?
Two concrete blocks, one in each pannier ............. or two on a trailer?

Not tried them in panniers, but on a trailer it wasn't too bad.
Two Blocks.jpg
Mick F. Cornwall
Tangled Metal
Posts: 9505
Joined: 13 Feb 2015, 8:32pm

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by Tangled Metal »

Is that a Burley trailer Mick.
User avatar
bikes4two
Posts: 1306
Joined: 12 Jan 2010, 10:14pm
Location: SE Hampshire, UK

Re: Trailer vs Panniers

Post by bikes4two »

Tangled Metal wrote:Is that a Burley trailer Mick.


No, it's a Carry Freedom Y Frame trailer.
Without my stoker, every trip would only be half a journey
Post Reply