Advice sought on choosing a touring bike

[pwa]

It's nice to see people having good nuts and bolts discussions over sensible bikes.

Some of the bikes being discussed are not that different. Spa's tourer has a 725 frame, as does the Panorama. Surly tend to use 4130, which is similar to 725 but not (correct me if I am wrong) heat treated in the way that 725 is.

I have a Thorn 700c wheeled tourer with 32mm wide (Panracer Pasela) smooth road touring tyres. A bit like a Panorama / Spa. It is a great commuter, it is ideal on country lanes, and it copes well with gravelly surfaces. So for anything from roads to reasonably firm tracks it is good. I could fit wider tyres if I anticipated rougher surfaces.

26" wheels tend to have tyres that are meant to run on lower pressures (65psi max rather than the 90psi I put in my 32mm 700c tyres). That can give a softer ride, but I find they don't roll quite as feely on tarmac. But it is a subtle difference. I would favour 26" if I could see myself wanting to do prolonged stretches on unsurfaced tracks. I would accept the slightly less efficient rolling on lanes, and console myself with the extra cushioning. But a 700c tourer with wider tyres than I use can cope with some pretty poor surfaces, so there is a lot of overlap in their capabilities.

[Paulatic]

Tangled metal

Don't push the button, I get the impression you are a long way off certain what you need. I'll give you my tuppence worth to add to your deliberation/dilemma.
As touring is not in the foreseeable future forget that for now. Commuting and weekend family rides and the trails you mention anything will do it. I've ridden them on Mtb and 25mm road bike with the kids.
For commuting I just would NOT use a new bike. My preference would be for a bike with IHG as they are so much less maintenance. I watched a bike on Ebay , for sale in Carnforth, recently ideal for commuting around £100. At the same time I bought a mtb bike from Garstang for £40. Light steel frame, so light the seller advertised it as alluminium, 15+years old and like new. Probably done 10mls around the town. Once again an ideal commuter.
So I would hang onto your money until you are 110% certain you want and need a tourer. And you've looked at and quizzed the attributes of individual bikes and are certain what you think is worthwhile.

[pwa]

Paulatic

plenty of good suggestions there. What you can commute on depends on the type of commute you do. I used to commute over 10 miles (each way) including several miles of hilly lanes, and my touring bike was ideal. An mtb would have been harder work on those roads. A racer would not have coped with my panniers. I think touring bikes are as versatile as bikes get.

[Paulatic]

Agreed, I use an old Orange P7 mtb frame for a commute of 10ml each way. I easily knock minutes off my time when I do the same route on my road bike.
If my commute was longer I would seriously consider something else. I suspect my time difference is more related to a 7sp hub v 20sp compact.
As for a hilly route then I'd be looking to us whatever is the lighter.

[Tangled Metal]

I used a 25 year old reynolds 501 frame road bike a few years ago for the commute before i stopped through lack of commitment to it. It was getting trashed quickly not least because of the 700x23c wheels at over 100psi (I liked a hard tyre for some reason). Last year I commuted from early spring through to January but the bike was nicked. That bike was a Spesh Crosstrail hybrid. The route was the same with both bikes (the older bike did8 miles each way but the hybrid 7 because a change of job made it nearer to work). The speed difference was amazing and not all of it was down to me being fitter back then. 20 to 25 minutes to do 8 miles (that is door to door with stops for lights) about 20-24mph average speed (including stops so not moving average) on the road bike. The hybrid was 26-36 minutes for 7 miles !!!! That is quite some difference. I used to test the aero affect of the upright position by leaning over my bars and for the same effort I could get 2mph just by tucking down on my hybrid. That was not sustainable as I was holding my weight on my arms too much.

So to put it bluntly I need a faster bike than a hybrid which for this and other reasons means a drop bar bike. I could buy a CX type but posts on here have totally put me off it should I tour then it would be less than ideal. Even looking at commuting with a pannier rack on a gravel bike you are into heel clip problems with 420-430cm chainstays. The tourers I have seen are at least 445cm. That is significant. My hybrid was 445cm and I used to get heel clip on that on rare occasion if my foot has slipped on the pedal.

So a drop barred bike suitable for a wide range of surfaces but mostly road and gravel but able to cope with a bit more if needed. Able to take panniers with a little bit of commuting weight and a lot more at weekends. Even if not touring I tend to carry plenty for myself, my partner and child in my pannier so my partner isn't carrying anything. She is slow so anything that slows me down and speeds her up is done. I can't manage a child seat due to it being so high up and getting leg over crossbar is interesting when you are balancing a top heavy bike!! It will get a bracket in case needed and will get a burly hitch for a child or a cargo trailer.

So basically I could get away with anything reasonable for commuting this is my one and only bike purchase for perhaps 5 or 10 years. i do not trust my bike judgement to go secondhand. Well I do but I see that as taking money from my main bike which I will need to get.

This means I am researching online (forums, bike shops, reviews, etc) consulting collective knowledge and experience both on here and with people I know and trust (with experience too). I am also trying as many types of bikes as possible to get an idea as to what they are like to ride. So far hybrids, MTBs, 29ers are out due to flat bars (need drop bars due to dodgy hands/wrists/elbows needing changes of hand position at regular intervals). That leaves gravel bikes = too short chainstay i think and seem a bit twitchy to me or touring bikes. I have only tried my Dad's falcon tourer (£500 when bought probably 15+ years ago so not a bad tourer in 531 tubing and decent gearing) I always though it heavy and compared to my 9.5kg steel road bike from 1990 it was very heavy. It is now what I think is best but until i try a newer tourer I will not decide.

Not sure I have any choice than a tourer really.

[Neil C]

There is a black metal u shaped component hanging over the top of the headtube from the steerer that I don't know what it is. I think the ridgeback expedition has a chromed thing similar.

It is a steering stop that prevents contact of the handlebar with the top tube of the frame preventing any damage - or at least that is what the Cinelli website says.

[pwa]

Tangled Metal

with your list of requirements I think you are bound to choose a tourer. I like Spa, but I'm sure Surly, Ridgeback and Dawes all have decent products. I would say if in doubt, spend more rather than less, but don't spend more than you can afford.

[pjclinch]

You want aero... but you don't need a drop bar machine. If you want to do aero better, while maintaining riding comfort and pilot view, consider a suitable recumbent. I'm not so keen on mine in town as it's not so manoeuvrable in traffic, but on the open road it's far, far more comfortable (no weight on your arms and a comfy chair to sit in), gives me a better view of where I'm going and carries luggage better. Not great off-road, but while it's not exactly a MTB it certainly isn't stuck if the tarmac ends.

Recumbents vary far more than upwrongs between models so you do have to choose carefully, and always try before you buy because you can't assume that one is much like another. But if you want fast and tour-capable, something along the lines of an HPVel Speedmachine (http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/recumbents/hpvelotechnik/speedmachine/) might be the sort of direction to go in.

Pete.

[Tangled Metal]

I have the money for a really good bike but savings for a rainy day approach means my strong willpower will stop me breaking the comfortable spend limit of £800 (or up to £850 all in at a push). Of course that steering stop and the storage for 2 spokes nearly sold the expensive Cinelli for me even though I have never broken a spoke in my life or needed to use a steering stop. But I have that strong willpower I mentioned so I won't spend that much.

PS I gave my willpower house space a few years ago and I have not spent so little on gear and so much on the house since!!! Funny how that happens.

[Tangled Metal]

You want aero... but you don't need a drop bar machine. If you want to do aero better, while maintaining riding comfort and pilot view, consider a suitable recumbent. I'm not so keen on mine in town as it's not so manoeuvrable in traffic, but on the open road it's far, far more comfortable (no weight on your arms and a comfy chair to sit in), gives me a better view of where I'm going and carries luggage better. Not great off-road, but while it's not exactly a MTB it certainly isn't stuck if the tarmac ends.

Recumbents vary far more than upwrongs between models so you do have to choose carefully, and always try before you buy because you can't assume that one is much like another. But if you want fast and tour-capable, something along the lines of an HPVel Speedmachine (http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/recumbents/hpvelotechnik/speedmachine/) might be the sort of direction to go in.

Pete.

I'm sure I omnce saw a touring 'bent on an outdoors forum last year. It looked off road perched near a tent with specially designed panniers. Looked like it would load up very nicely for touring. Not even on my radar as I will be commuting a lot on the bike and plan to go offroad too. I took a little while to get used to flat bars, seriously I think they are weird coming from decades of road bike riding (drop bars) so just how long would I take to get safe enough on a 'bent to commute in traffic????

I knew a guy who got one but after his first ride out with his cycling wife she put her foot down and he was not allowed to ride it in her presence again. Found that funny because it was possibly the only thing she has put her foot down about between them since they are just so alike in what their interests are.

[pjclinch]

I took a little while to get used to flat bars, seriously I think they are weird coming from decades of road bike riding (drop bars) so just how long would I take to get safe enough on a 'bent to commute in traffic????

I took about a week from first getting going to being properly happy on benign roads, and after a month I'd tackle anything I'd tackle on an upwrong. A lot of it's about how easily you can relax.

When I say "traffic" I mean the stop-start kind where you might want to do lots of filtering. Flowing traffic is no particular problem, and I find the astonishing? Factor gets me quite a lot more space on the road. Stop-start traffic probably sin't any quicker on a road bike than a hybrid. Offroad, we've tackled bits of NCN that are "not suitable for loaded tourers" when using them for, errrr, loaded touring.

Main issue is price, but places like D-Tek have a good second hand stock and it becomes a bit more sensible.

Pete.

[Jimstar79]

Hey Tangled Metal,

For me this is a big spend to make and before pushing the button I need to know from people with a similar bike (although your's is the higher model i think you can give me an idea what the lower spec model is like

I will definitely follow up with a bit of a review of the bike. I completely understand where you are coming from - budget-wise. It was the same for me - the Expedition looks good and the Voyage, from what I have read, also gets a lot of praise. The bike should be here by the weekend and I will likely get a chance to ride it on Sunday but not going too far, might just do 10-15 miles to start with, to get a feel for her!

Initially I was looking at the Genesis Tour de Fer - no doubt a very good looking bike but the lack of reviews available online and the fact it's retail price is £300 less than the RB Panorama at £899 (all of its components are under par with the Panorama's, but it comes with mechanical disk brakes).

The Cinelli also looks like a great bike but I'm not sure if you need to spend so much - perhaps the Spa bike is a good compromise from overspending by too much?

I am thinking of unsurfaced towpaths through to gravely tracks in the Lakes (e.g. the side of Windermere near High Wray down to ferry nab for example

This is no problem - I did it last year on my road bike with slicks!! OK, I did take it easy but still there is very little need for 26 inch wheels on such a surface unless you are absolutely powering through there, screaming at tourists to 'Get out the way!!'.

I only went all in on the Panorama because I am limited for time (I couldn't spend many more hours looking on the net), found one for a superb pricce. If you can wait then my advice is to do so. But if you have an 'itch' it really isn't long before it needs scratching!

Take it easy

[Jimstar79]

Tangled Metal - this Jamis Bosa Nova is a great looking bike:

http://www.evanscycles.com/products/jamis/bosa-nova-2015-touring-bike-ec072111

Mechanical disk brakes, decent frame but no pannier racks. £765.

You might even be able to find it cheaper elsewhere. Just thought I'd post it for you (not wanting to add to your confusion!).

[Teejayw]

I have just bought a Dawes Galaxy Classic from Winstanley's..superb value for money..almost half price.The saving has allowed me to purchase some top of the range rear panniers (ARKEL)and a Brooks B17 Select saddle..also Brooks leather handlebar tape.If you contact Winstanleys and tell them which models you are interested in they will offer you a chance to try them out.They have a number of cycles on display but not their complete range.I notice you live in the Lake District so it would be a short sprint down the M6 to visit them....Best wishes.

[Tangled Metal]

Last year saw us ride PD bridleways with trailer and child seat options for our lad. White Dales area near high peak trail. Used mtb style hybrid and she had a mtb. Rocky trail, would the rb Expedition be needed or would you get by with a 700c tourer? Are thin mtb tyres that much stronger on these small wheel tourers?