New Dawes 26"

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
Tacascarow
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by Tacascarow »

bretonbikes wrote:
stuartg wrote:Most goods nowadays are disposable and we live in a disposable culture, if it breaks or the colour not right - bin it! To be fair the quality of some of the older bikes, is amazing compared to newer models. I do feel that a lot of the UK manufacturers tried to compete with overseas manufacturers on price. This meant movement of manufacturing overseas (which I don't have a problem with) but poor quality controls, design and materials (which I do have a problem with).

The manufacturers that have done well, know their market - just look at Brooks, you can argue they are overpriced but they are good quality (despite a slip up with overseas manufacturing) and they know their market. I think Dawes are calling this one right.


To be fair the quality of frame building is much better now - the old Orbit and Dawes frames I used to buy 25 years ago were frequently poorly aligned and I've had to file many a dropout to fit the wheel properly. Since they've gone to Far Eastern/Eastern European manufacture all the frames I've received have been spot-on - sad but true - wish it were otherwise...

That probably has more to do with computer controlled machinery than country of manufacture.
bretonbikes
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by bretonbikes »

Tacascarow wrote:
bretonbikes wrote:
stuartg wrote:Most goods nowadays are disposable and we live in a disposable culture, if it breaks or the colour not right - bin it! To be fair the quality of some of the older bikes, is amazing compared to newer models. I do feel that a lot of the UK manufacturers tried to compete with overseas manufacturers on price. This meant movement of manufacturing overseas (which I don't have a problem with) but poor quality controls, design and materials (which I do have a problem with).

The manufacturers that have done well, know their market - just look at Brooks, you can argue they are overpriced but they are good quality (despite a slip up with overseas manufacturing) and they know their market. I think Dawes are calling this one right.


To be fair the quality of frame building is much better now - the old Orbit and Dawes frames I used to buy 25 years ago were frequently poorly aligned and I've had to file many a dropout to fit the wheel properly. Since they've gone to Far Eastern/Eastern European manufacture all the frames I've received have been spot-on - sad but true - wish it were otherwise...

That probably has more to do with computer controlled machinery than country of manufacture.


of course - and the problem with the UK was it had a few blokes in sheds brazing up stuff at maximum speed and getting neither quality nor price. It's the history of British engineering (compared to our rivals) for the last 150 years.
38 years of cycletouring, 33 years of running cycling holidays, 8 years of running a campsite for cyclists - there's a pattern here...
bretonbikes
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by bretonbikes »

pwa wrote:Back to the original post, I'm firmly on the side of 700c (about32mm) tyres for lanes / reasonable cycle tracks, with 26" for those (not me) who see themselves doing proper off-road routes. I'm happy with 26" on my tandem because of the extra mass, but I wouldn't want 26" on a solo bike destined for road use. When I tour it is in Western Europe (France, Italy, Switzerland, etc), not Nepal. I'm not going to change from that, so 700c is the best option for me. Happily, some manufacturers now offer otherwise identical bikes in 26" or 700c. You pay your money and you take your choice.


Choice is the critical thing, and what we have been missing for so long. One thing though - one day go try a 26" tourer on narrow slick tyres like these - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/schwalbe-kojak- ... -mtb-tyre/ and I think you might change your mind about the Galaxy being better on-road (or you may not - but give it a go;-)
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honesty
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by honesty »

The more I look at the new Dawes range the more I like them. The paint jobs are particularly nice this year I think. If it comes to year end and I get a decent work bonus I may end up replacing my commuter/tourer with one of their higher end models on a discount. I'm liking the look of the Gran Tour at the moment, and it doesn't seem to be that expensive to replace the front wheel with one with a dynamo.
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by bretonbikes »

simon153 wrote:I use a 26 inch wheel VSF FahrradManufaktur T400. It is a mainstream manufactured 26 inch tourer with flat bars and is available with a number of different options for levels of equipment. Mine has a Shimano XT group set an has proved to be ultra reliable and day long comfortable. These bikes are available readiy in Europe, over the Internet and at several retailers in Britain. It is true that I can go faster on my Galaxy but I've been able to go wherever I wanted to go on the T400, or rather I haven't found anywhere I couldn't go yet.


Just to revive this and to say thanks...

After your post I got in touch with VSF and now have 10 of their 700c hybrids in our day-hire fleet (still wouldn't use 700c for our cyclecamping holidays) - I have to say that in 25 years I've never seen better assembled and finished bikes. They arrived on time (after 2 1/2 years I'm still waiting for Orbit to fulfill an order for BB Specials!) - there are also no corners cut though the bikes (50s) are the bottom of their range - even the Allen bolts are top quality. I'd recommend anyone looking for a quality bike to check out their website - with the current Euro rate they are bargains.

Sadly VSF drop barred tourer is only available in 26" for the smaller size, and only one model (the TX-400) has 26" wheels for all sizes. However in future, rather that the sheer agonies of trying to get BB Specials built and delivered I will be ordering the TX-400's - you may have saved me from premature heart attack...
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Sweep
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by Sweep »

simonhill wrote:Why o why have they got drops. Most people after a bike like this want straight bars. Heading for another flop I guess.

Agree totally. Apart from that (and the disc brakes) i really like the look of the bike.
I know diddly squat about the intricacies of bike marketing:pricing but i can't help wondering why they didn't produce two versions, one dropped and one flat. They could have done a bit of live/real world market research and figured out which was most popular. Dawes must surely have access to lots of economically priced bits.
Maybe by the time i buy an expedition bike the mainstream market will have produced what i'm after, 26 inch wheels, flat bar, 36 spoked wheels, no more than 9 speed, no external BB, V brakes, sloping top tube, basic decent steel frame. Is it too much to ask?
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bretonbikes
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by bretonbikes »

Sweep wrote:
simonhill wrote:Why o why have they got drops. Most people after a bike like this want straight bars. Heading for another flop I guess.

Agree totally. Apart from that (and the disc brakes) i really like the look of the bike.
I know diddly squat about the intricacies of bike marketing:pricing but i can't help wondering why they didn't produce two versions, one dropped and one flat. They could have done a bit of live/real world market research and figured out which was most popular. Dawes must surely have access to lots of economically priced bits.
Maybe by the time i buy an expedition bike the mainstream market will have produced what i'm after, 26 inch wheels, flat bar, 36 spoked wheels, no more than 9 speed, no external BB, V brakes, sloping top tube, basic decent steel frame. Is it too much to ask?


You've just described a BB Special - that I have to sweat blood to have produced - I've even managed to source 8-speed and proper quill stems up til now... But it's just too hard, too expensive and you have to deal with too many people who promise but never deliver. So from now-on it's off-the-peg for us I'm afraid.

Contrast that with Carradice who are quite happy to make my design of panniers exclusively for me, on time and at a reasonable cost.

...don't get me started...
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horizon
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by horizon »

Sweep wrote:
simonhill wrote:Why o why have they got drops. Most people after a bike like this want straight bars. Heading for another flop I guess.

Agree totally. Apart from that (and the disc brakes) i really like the look of the bike.
I know diddly squat about the intricacies of bike marketing:pricing but i can't help wondering why they didn't produce two versions, one dropped and one flat. They could have done a bit of live/real world market research and figured out which was most popular. Dawes must surely have access to lots of economically priced bits.
Maybe by the time i buy an expedition bike the mainstream market will have produced what i'm after, 26 inch wheels, flat bar, 36 spoked wheels, no more than 9 speed, no external BB, V brakes, sloping top tube, basic decent steel frame. Is it too much to ask?


Well not according to Oxford Bike Works (who are mainstream enough for Spa to sell them):

http://spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b0s21p3061

In what way wouldn't this bike fulfill your criteria? AFAICS it ticks all the boxes.

One reason why builders ought to be careful about mixing straight and dropped bar versions is that there should really be a frame dimension difference (shorter top tube for the drops). Thorn do this. AFAIK OBW don't do a dropped version and (AFAICS) their frame wouldn't suit one. Surly OTOH (AFAICS) don't do straights, though lots of people convert them or buy the frame and add them.
Last edited by horizon on 9 Jul 2015, 12:14am, edited 1 time in total.
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horizon
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by horizon »

simonhill wrote:What I said was that people WANT flat bars on a bike like this.



I never did. I found the Sardar was simply excellent as a do-it-all bike. It was really like a 26" Galaxy. It's the feeling that you could get out on the open road as much as the muddy cyclepath. I would recommend this bike (the Coast to Coast) to anyone who only wants one bike. Worth comparing it with a cross bike actually and I know which I would choose.

I think the trouble with drops is that they don't suit people who aren't used to them (95% of the public, brought up on MTBs) and, my personal belief, who have the wrong body shape for the longer reach demanded by drops i.e. you need longer arms, longer body and shorter legs. Drops otherwise give you what road bikes offer - a faster riding position (can I say that?).

So, I agree with you - most people want straights. Dawes should do a straight bar version. With a different frame. But I wonder if that would mean the end of the dropped version - after all, the Sardar drops disappeared for a long time.

I still think it's the bike format to beat all bike formats ...
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
bretonbikes
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by bretonbikes »

Not sure you need different frames - we use the same frame for both - people riding 'flats' generally want to have their hands higher than those used to drops which automatically shortens the 'length' - you've also got a wide range of stems and seatposts with 3" of adjustment there. With the wide range of people shapes around and personal preferences you're better off providing a single frame for both and giving a large range of adjustment. After all, go to 5 custom builders with your measurements and you'll end up with 5 different top-tube lengths.

Of course that brings up the whole thorny topic of handlebar height - our BB specials run higher than most touring bikes and yet in 25 years I can count the number of customers who've asked for the handlebars to be lowered on the fingers of one hand. Someone asks for the handlebars to be higher (and because of crappy aheadsets that option has gone) several times a week. Go to a CTC meet - you'll find most have their bars as high as they'll go and many will have fitted aftermarket extensions. It's generally ex-racers who rack them low and that's a minority.

Imagine if Ford produced a new Fiesta and found that 80% of their customers had the driver's seat as far back as possible and still complained that they were too close to the wheel - Ford would make the seat go back further wouldn't they? Odd that the bike industry knows better than its customers and ignores this sort of thing.
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horizon
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by horizon »

bretonbikes wrote:Not sure you need different frames - we use the same frame for both - people riding 'flats' generally want to have their hands higher than those used to drops which automatically shortens the 'length' - you've also got a wide range of stems and seatposts with 3" of adjustment there. With the wide range of people shapes around and personal preferences you're better off providing a single frame for both and giving a large range of adjustment. After all, go to 5 custom builders with your measurements and you'll end up with 5 different top-tube lengths.



I picked up this idea of differential top tubes from Thorn. It caught my eye because I'm challenged by reach but prefer drop bars. Drop bars send you forward by about 12 cm so you can handle that in whatever way you like: shorter stem, a shorter top tube, a nice short top tube if you start off with a drop bar top tube and then put straights on etc etc etc.

I find it quite difficult to really distinguish between top tube lengths due to seat angle and sloping top tubes. However, on the best calculations I could do, the OBW frame would be too long for me: it's set up for straight bars.

Don't forget that the "large range of adjustment" you talk about doesn't really exist: the head tube cannot be brought back so you are left with the stem. The 10 cm or so of adjustment available in the stem is taken up fully by the 12 cm of drops taking you forward meaning that there's nothing left unless the bike maker has already plumbed in a short top tube. Most people don't notice unless you've got long legs and short arms ....
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
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Sweep
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by Sweep »

horizon wrote:
Sweep wrote:Maybe by the time i buy an expedition bike the mainstream market will have produced what i'm after, 26 inch wheels, flat bar, 36 spoked wheels, no more than 9 speed, no external BB, V brakes, sloping top tube, basic decent steel frame. Is it too much to ask?


Well not according to Oxford Bike Works (who are mainstream enough for Spa to sell them):

http://spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m1b0s21p3061

In what way wouldn't this bike fulfill your criteria? AFAICS it ticks all the boxes.

One reason why builders ought to be careful about mixing straight and dropped bar versions is that there should really be a frame dimension difference (shorter top tube for the drops). Thorn do this. AFAIK OBW don't do a dropped version and (AFAICS) their frame wouldn't suit one. Surly OTOH (AFAICS) don't do straights, though lots of people convert them or buy the frame and add them.


Yes, horizon - I know about that bike. Agree that it is very nice. And very sensibly thought out. It is a bit pricey though and my consideration of it paled a bit when I found out that I would get, in my view, a minimal discount for not taking the front rack - which I don't need as I already have precisely the same one sitting in the garage.

Am now thinking of a flat bar Surly build.

Can you explain more about this geometry issue?

My flat bar hybrid/700 tourer has been said by some to be too short for me but I actually spend a fair bit of time on the bar ends so find it no issue at all.
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Sweep
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by Sweep »

bretonbikes wrote:You've just described a BB Special - that I have to sweat blood to have produced - I've even managed to source 8-speed and proper quill stems up til now... But it's just too hard, too expensive and you have to deal with too many people who promise but never deliver. So from now-on it's off-the-peg for us I'm afraid.

..


Am flattered and encouraged that you agree with the view I have, after much muddling, arrived at, as you clearly know more about bike stuff than me.

I'm clearly learning a lot on here.
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horizon
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by horizon »

Sweep wrote:
Can you explain more about this geometry issue?



When Surly designed the LHT for drops, the top tube would be short enough to allow for the fact that the rider's hands go forward to the brake hoods (about 10 cm - 12cm forward of the stem bolt) as the normal riding position (though I find it almost impossible to verify this 100% due the nature of sloping top tubes etc).

If you then bought the frame only and put on straight bars, the top tube would be a bit short. This is easily remedied by a longer stem. But if you started with a straight bar frame and put on drops, you cannot put on a stem shorter than 0 cm! So your top tube will be too long and you might therefore find the reach too great. Many (most?) people won't notice but if you want a shorter reach, you don't start with a straight bar bike.

BTW you cannot solve the problem by buying a smaller bike - the reach is fixed due to the size of the wheels. A 26" wheel Surly LHT could have a shorter top tube than the 700c version but I have no real way of verifying that it does and AFAIK the geomtry is identical.
When the pestilence strikes from the East, go far and breathe the cold air deeply. Ignore the sage, stay not indoors. Ho Ri Zon 12th Century Chinese philosopher
molzor
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Re: New Dawes 26"

Post by molzor »

what about oxford bike works? ive been looking at them a lot lately. they make a range of 26" wheel tourers which look rather fancy. and can be custom designed
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