Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

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anniesboy
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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by anniesboy »

It seems to me to be ridiculous that much cycle clothing is black, I call it the new yellow.

The Highway Code rule 59 says cyclists should wear the following

appropriate clothes for cycling. Avoid clothes which may get tangled in the chain, or in a wheel or may obscure your lights
light-coloured or fluorescent clothing which helps other road users to see you in daylight and poor light
reflective clothing and/or accessories (belt, arm or ankle bands) in the dark.

There should be no doubt that anyone unfortunate enough to be involved in any incident and not wearing appropriate clothing does so at their risk /choice.
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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by Spinners »

maxcherry wrote:So why do people in Hi-Viz, with lights and helmet get knocked over ?


Did I ever say they didn't?

I just think there's more chance of a cyclist being seen by wearing brighter colours. That's all.
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Mick F
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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by Mick F »

Spinners wrote:I just think there's more chance of a cyclist being seen by wearing brighter colours. That's all.
+1
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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by tim-b »

Hi

If you subscribe to the contrast theory then what is the correct colour for greatest vis on a longer ride...oilseed rape fields, followed by a built-up area, followed by a shady "tree tunnel"?

I always wear either a yellow, an orange or a white jersey; I prefer the orange one during the day because it doesn't attract hordes of little flying things from the fields, at night I prefer either yellow or white. No science, just my preference

I don't use lights during the day unless it's foggy (or similar), again it's just my preference

If drivers don't look far enough ahead, drive too quickly for their view, or just don't think, then potentially it's game over regardless of colour / lighting

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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by pjclinch »

tim-b wrote:
If you subscribe to the contrast theory then what is the correct colour for greatest vis on a longer ride...oilseed rape fields, followed by a built-up area, followed by a shady "tree tunnel"?


It's not a case of "correct colour", it's a case of realising that you're playing a losing game trying to second guess the scenery, and the visual acuity of the neighbourhood's drivers.

tim-b wrote:If drivers don't look far enough ahead, drive too quickly for their view, or just don't think, then potentially it's game over regardless of colour / lighting


Quite so.

anniesboy wrote:It seems to me to be ridiculous that much cycle clothing is black, I call it the new yellow.

The Highway Code rule 59 says cyclists should wear...


And if you look at THC closer it tells you pedestrians should be wearing pretty much the same thing (helmet excepted), yet nobody seems to bother and that isn't actually a problem (perceived or actual). And if you look at Cyclecraft it will point out that when it comes to cycling advice the Highway Code isn't actually that sharp.

anniesboy wrote:There should be no doubt that anyone unfortunate enough to be involved in any incident and not wearing appropriate clothing does so at their risk /choice.


It's clear that any cycling you do, whatever you do it in, is at your own risk. You do need to careful about banging on too much about "appropriate clothes" though, because you end up straying in to Victim Blaming territory remarkably easily. As noted, THC stresses the importance of bright/reflective clothing for pedestrians, so next thing we know someone running over children near ice cream vans is absolved because the sprog was in his Batman costume.

Mick F wrote:
Spinners wrote:I just think there's more chance of a cyclist being seen by wearing brighter colours. That's all.
+1


That I ride around most typically in bright (but not fluo) colours suggests that at least a part of me agrees, and I doubt there'll be much/any active disadvantage (including hi-viz) to getting seen in the overall grand scheme of things.

However, one needs to remember the risk compensation issue and always ride as if they're in DPM, and it's important to realise that people in Normal Clothes (my normal clothes are bright, but lots of folk have black ones) are actually entirely visible on the road to anyone bothering to look if they are in a position they can be seen.

When I'm teaching kids Bikeability I bring out a student in a dayglo vest, having divested myself of anything bright. I ask which of us is easiest to see. Everyone says it's the student. Then I stand in front of the student, and ask again, and it's me. And none of them have any trouble seeing me without hi-viz, even if I'd stick out even more in hi-viz. It also makes the students (hopefully) aware that even drivers looking out for them can't see them around corners, or in blind spots etc., so the "I'm lit up like a Christmas Tree, everyone can see me!" feeling doesn't take root.

More is not always better, if enough is enough. And I don't want to put off people who really don't want to ride if they have to dress up like out-takes from a H&S conference. And if people want to ride in black then it's a legitimate choice they don't need lecturing about.

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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by Mick F »

We have three cats.
Two are black and white, and one is completely black.

It's the black and white ones that we can see very easily, but the black one seems to disappear into any background.
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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by Psamathe »

One thing I've noticed when it comes to hi-vis on narrow lanes is: Horse riders always wear hi-vis, dog walkers mostly wear hi-vis (sometimes even the dogs), cyclists mostly wear hi-vis, mothers pushing buggies never wear hi-vis.

I'd be interested to know the casualty data for mothers pushing buggies on narrow country lanes; 'cos I was very surprised when I became aware of the pattern.

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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by pjclinch »

Mick F wrote:We have three cats.
Two are black and white, and one is completely black.

It's the black and white ones that we can see very easily, but the black one seems to disappear into any background.


But is it actively trying to stay in places where it can be seen, following rules that govern traffic flow? If our cat is anything to go by, probably not.

Otherwise, ask why insurance companies do not charge a special extra premium for black cars, since people must be driving in to them unawares all the time...

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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by Mick F »

We had a dark green Peugeot 205 for some years, and when we bought it, I instantly noticed that we weren't so well seen as we had been in our previous (bright red) car. For all the years we owned it, I was constantly aware how we blended in.

Why they produce cars in poor colours I don't know. I do wonder if there are any figures and statistics re accidents of dull colours vs bright ones.

Black cat is curled up on the hearth-rug, one black and white one is asleep in a cardboard box in the spare room, and the other one is out somewhere ............. trying to be invisible. :lol:
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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by al_yrpal »

I have a white helmet with reflective strips on front and back. I also wear white or light tee shirts, I hate cycling jerseys that are tight. I am not an advertising hoarding. If its a dull day I put on a loose fitting flourescent yellow vest with reflective strips which can play hell with those self flushing urinals. :D

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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by irc »

pjclinch wrote:Otherwise, ask why insurance companies do not charge a special extra premium for black cars, since people must be driving in to them unawares all the time...

Pete.


Because accidents caused by dark V bright coloured cars are a small fraction of the total accidents. Factor like driver age and experience and postcode of residence etc are far larger and are what set preiums. I know from experience that bright colours can be seen more easily at a distance. I have seen groups of cyclists or hillwalkers at a distance and seen the brightly dressed ones far sooner than the ones dressed in black.

I accept that in most cases drivers don't see because they are not looking but the low visibility of black still exists. Choosing not to wear black is just another edge I can get in my favour. Like choosing the low traffic 30mph route rather than the 70mph dual carriageway. Like not riding in the gutter etc. Just because the effect is small doesn't mean I would not rather have it in my favour.
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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by squeaker »

pjclinch wrote:....And if you look at THC closer it tells you pedestrians should be wearing pretty much the same thing (helmet excepted), yet nobody seems to bother and that isn't actually a problem (perceived or actual).


Which reminds me of a rather pertinent cartoon I saw recently in an old Punch compendium :roll: :lol:
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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by mjr »

anniesboy wrote:The Highway Code rule 59 says cyclists should wear the following

The current Highway Code is an evidence-free abomination in several ways when it concerns cycling and I shall wholeheartedly campaign with CTC to get it corrected the next time it is updated. Happily some of the sillier things like the light or flourescent clothing bit are not backed by law and should not stand up in court because there is insufficient evidence for them.

There have been several studies about car crashes and car colours and they contradict each other. It seems to make a very minor difference if any. There are loads of ways we can improve cycling safety and dictating clothing is nowhere near the top of the list... if it is on it at all!

Good lights are far more important but most of what is bought in the UK is really awful. How many of the antiblack posters here have an illegal lighting setup on one or more of their bikes, or knows a close friend or family member with one?
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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by pjclinch »

irc wrote:Because accidents caused by dark V bright coloured cars are a small fraction of the total accidents.


Okay, you've piqued my interest... exactly what fraction?

irc wrote:I know from experience that bright colours can be seen more easily at a distance. I have seen groups of cyclists or hillwalkers at a distance and seen the brightly dressed ones far sooner than the ones dressed in black.


Nobody's disputing that, but as I've already pointed out, you don't get hit by a motor vehicle that's half a mile away.

irc wrote:I accept that in most cases drivers don't see because they are not looking but the low visibility of black still exists. Choosing not to wear black is just another edge I can get in my favour. Like choosing the low traffic 30mph route rather than the 70mph dual carriageway. Like not riding in the gutter etc. Just because the effect is small doesn't mean I would not rather have it in my favour.


You say it's "small", which is a qaulitative measure. What actually is it, quantitatively? Follow the research and it's increasingly turning out to be the case that hi-viz doesn't give any clear edge. That's not intuitive, but there again neither is the fact that crash helmets don't appear to do anything for your chances of a trip to A&E with something serious.

Choosing the type of road does alter chances a lot. Rural A roads have about 8 times the KSI rate as an urban back road, for example. But can you actually quantify the difference in chances for wearing black as opposed to YELLOW, or are you just guessing?

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Re: Lighting a bike/high vis on tour

Post by Spinners »

squeaker wrote:
Which reminds me of a rather pertinent cartoon I saw recently in an old Punch compendium :roll: :lol:


LOL that's a great cartoon and I love that word 'Motocracy'.
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