Hand-Built Wheels - Expectations

[br8ker]

Hi all,
i'm after some advice...
i bought two sets of wheels from a well-known wheel builder as i decided i wanted something bulletproof for our upcoming tour.
received the wheels about 6 weeks ago, & made the mistake of assuming they'd be ok.
I finally mounted everything (brakes etc) on the weekend and 3 out of 4 of wheels are out of true by a mm or two.
I could re-align the wheels but was just wondering what my expectations of hand-built wheels should be? is this normal? or should they be dead-straight and stay dead-straight?
I've only got 6 weeks before i go so my options are limited in terms of getting them to e.g. redo the job....

[MikewsMITH2]

Plus or minus 0.5mm is the "standard", but I wouldn't worry at this stage as a mm or two isn't going to stop you adjusting the brakes properly. You should get them retensioned after a few hundred miles anyway, after the spokes have bedded in. Whether they stay in true is more a matter of whether the wheels have been properly de-stressed and the spokes tensions are equalised.

Do your tour and take the wheels back afterwards. Once they have been retrued they should stay that way.

[br8ker]

thanks for the quick response!
yeah i wasnt aware that they needed bedding in - i thought that's what all the pre-tensioning was all about..
trip is going to be 7months actually, so i guess i'm going to have to retrue them myself - do you by any chance have any links/videos you recommend for that sort of stuff?

[pete75]

According to Roger Musson in his wheel building guide correctly built wheels shouldn't need any retensioning once in use. More than a millimetre out of true isn't really acceptable in professionally built wheels . 531Colin is the chap to give you a definitive answer on this.

[MikewsMITH2]

The spoke nipples bed into the rims and the spoke heads bed into the hubs. If the tensions are properly equalised in the first place, then they shouldn't really go out of true. Colin has some dodges, like punching the spoke heads in. I was talking to a full time pro wheelbuilder a few months back and he said "all stainless spokes stretch". I am not sure this is true, but his point was that wheels needed to be retensioned after they had been used for a while, so he didn't bother too much getting them perfect first time. I was not impressed!

The Park tools website has some useful wheelbuilding info, as does Roger Musson's site wheelpro.co.uk By then you will be ready to build your own wheels next time. Don't forget to take a few spare spokes with you and something to remove the cassette, as it's usually the drive side rear spokes that fail.

[RRSODL]

I think you are right to expect a smaller tolerance, how are you measuring the 1 or 2mm? However, we don't know enough about the wheels to make judgement. If the rims have serious imperfections, (rims are not perfect) then your builder probably had to compromise a bit to get a solid wheel with even tension. Even tension is more important provided there is sufficient tension and the wheel is still relatively true, horizontally and vertically. If the tension is not even and there is sufficient tension on the spokes then my guess is that the wheel was not built very well.

You shouldn't need to re-tensioned the spokes after a few hundred miles, not on a well built wheel anyway. A wheel that is left with spoke twist in them then after a while the spoke will work lose and re-tensioning would be required. A good wheel builder will make sure the wheel is properly stress relieved and the spokes heads are flush with the hub flange.

So, it's possible the wheels are good wheels after all, but I agree with you, it doesn't look good.

[TonyR]

What everyone else has said - if the builder says you'll need to bring them back for retruing after a few hundred mile, find another builder who knows what they are doing. The wheels I build go straight on the bike and are never touched again until the rims have worn through or something gets damaged and needs replacing. (And steel spokes do not stretch inelastically until you get to tensions way beyond those in a spoke so whoever said that was lacking an education in basic mechanics)

[RRSODL]

The spoke nipples bed into the rims and the spoke heads bed into the hubs. If the tensions are properly equalised in the first place, then they shouldn't really go out of true. Colin has some dodges, like punching the spoke heads in. I was talking to a full time pro wheelbuilder a few months back and he said "all stainless spokes stretch". I am not sure this is true, but his point was that wheels needed to be retensioned after they had been used for a while, so he didn't bother too much getting them perfect first time. I was not impressed!

The Park tools website has some useful wheelbuilding info, as does Roger Musson's site wheelpro.co.uk By then you will be ready to build your own wheels next time. Don't forget to take a few spare spokes with you and something to remove the cassette, as it's usually the drive side rear spokes that fail.

Quite, it sounds like the type of wheel builder you want to keep away from.

[531colin]

There should be 2 options for people going on trips of 6 months duration.....
1) learn to sort out your own wheels
2) buy handbuilds, and don't need to touch them.

If you have to muck about with handbuilds, whats the point of handbuilds?

What does the builder say about the trueness of the wheels as supplied, and about what you might need to do to the wheels during the trip?

[br8ker]

thanks guys for all the info - much appreciated!
yep wheelbuilding is one thing i decided to leave till next tour.... maybe i should have tried it..

i'm measuring the deviation just up against the brake pads while mounted on the bikes - so not at all accurate. Any recommendations on how i should check this more accurately?

Note that i did have to get this delivered in a box so it could well have been mishandled during the trip - although it was packed really well and no damage to the box..

some stats:
* rigida sputnik rims
* Cassette side - Sapim Strong Single butted
* Non-Cass side - DT Double butted
* Front - DT plain gauge.
* Deore Hubs except for one of the fronts which is Son28 dyno hub
* spare spokes for both sides of rear and front

I called the wheelbuilder and the guy i spoke said to sort it myself if im confident or if not to take it to a local bike shop. as for what to do on the way he said that because they've done all that pre-tensioning stuff it should stay straight. interesting. as for how they could be out of line he offered that they might have got banged around in the box which is entirely possible. he said they always send them out true.

ultimately i think i'll just check out those two websites (park and wheelpro.co.uk) and learn to keep it straight myself. as i'm more worried sending them back, and not getting them returned in time to get my plane... or in worse condition than now!

[coast 2 coast]

0.5mm is the amount of deviation you should expect on a professionaly built set of wheels, of this quality. Sputnik rims are so stiff and strong, they should not go out of true so quickly when properly tensioned. If you are not happy with the build, for any reason, you are well within you rights to send them back and have them looked at. For the wheel builder to suggest truing them yourself is a little off in my opinion.

It sounds like a Spa Cycles build and I do know they have recently lost their very experienced wheel builder.

[mercalia]

hmmm for a wheel to go off that much seems bad, certainly not inevitable - The wheels of my 1999? Dawes 1-Down ( machine built I presume ) have been very sound since I got the bike new. Just 2 spokes broke in rear wheel in all that time, the last time me leaping off the bike ( lol poor rear wheel I am too heavy for that). Were very true right from the start and still are.

[RRSODL]

thanks guys for all the info - much appreciated!
yep wheelbuilding is one thing i decided to leave till next tour.... maybe i should have tried it..

i'm measuring the deviation just up against the brake pads while mounted on the bikes - so not at all accurate. Any recommendations on how i should check this more accurately?

Note that i did have to get this delivered in a box so it could well have been mishandled during the trip - although it was packed really well and no damage to the box..

some stats:
* rigida sputnik rims
* Cassette side - Sapim Strong Single butted
* Non-Cass side - DT Double butted
* Front - DT plain gauge.
* Deore Hubs except for one of the fronts which is Son28 dyno hub
* spare spokes for both sides of rear and front

I called the wheelbuilder and the guy i spoke said to sort it myself if im confident or if not to take it to a local bike shop. as for what to do on the way he said that because they've done all that pre-tensioning stuff it should stay straight. interesting. as for how they could be out of line he offered that they might have got banged around in the box which is entirely possible. he said they always send them out true.

ultimately i think i'll just check out those two websites (park and wheelpro.co.uk) and learn to keep it straight myself. as i'm more worried sending them back, and not getting them returned in time to get my plane... or in worse condition than now!

That doesn't sound very professional.

Whose was the choice of spokes for the front wheel? Double butted, IMO, would have been better spokes to use.

[br8ker]

I did a rudimentary test last night trying to slip 1mm and 2mm allen keys between wheel and brake pad at various points, and it looks to be under 1mm deviation probably ... strangely it seemed like a lot more the other day when adjusting the brakes.
anyway i can call off the hounds. thanks for all the advice and i'll be getting a copy of the book from that wheelpro.co.uk site in case anything goes wrong. hope not. i'll surely be writing here about it if it does!
it wasnt spa by the way.
choice of spokes was done completely by the builder - i told them i wanted something tough but not too expensive and that's what they specced.
thanks again all for the advice!

[br8ker]

long overdue but thought it decent to finally reply and say actually that the wheels were brilliant.
9 months touring through Asia without a hint of an issue.
In fact my gf managed to get her front wheel stuck in a rut between some planks on a bridge, then proceeded to fall over sideways on the fully loaded bike (30kg ish). I expected the wheel to be pretty badly deformed, but it wasnt and only took a couple of minutes to re-tension the spokes again.
When i heard first-hand some of the stories of other tourers with persistent wheel issues, i was really happy we spent a bit more on having them hand built.
Builder was Hewitt Cycles in the UK. highly recommend!