German touring bikes

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
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Thomas
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Joined: 21 Jan 2009, 10:38pm

German touring bikes

Post by Thomas »

Hello all

This is my first post here, but I've been watching you for a while :lol:

I want to do some touring around central Germany next summer, and I'm looking for a proper bike to do the job.

I've seen some German brands (Trenga, Fahrrad Manufaktur, Ghost) and I really like the way they look and some of their standard and distinctive features: hydraulic rim brakes, dynamo hubs, BUMM lights...

My question is, has anybody actually ridden any of those bikes?, do you think they are capable of riding some off rode fully loaded? (I'll be in Germany this year, but next one I might be in South America or Russia).

They seem like just city bikes to me, and I'm not sure at all about them.

My other bet is any Dawes, which are reliable tourers.

Thanks in advance, Thomas.
pq
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Post by pq »

I've met quite a few German tourers on home-grown bikes. They tend to be very well equipped and thought out, although I think all the extras aren't worth the weight - I'd sooner have something simpler.

I can't comment on the brands you're talking about, but if you want to go on dirt roads in poor countries the most important consideration is 26" wheels. That's because 26" is the nearest there is to a global standard size for bike wheels - 700c is very rare outside Europe/North America/Australia which will land you in a mess if you trash a wheel/tyre. That sort of bike is usually called an expedition tourer and there are quite a few options including Dawes, Thorn, Roberts as well as various German brands.

A good argument for not buying a German bike is the weakness of the £ against the Euro - it won't be good value.
emergency_pants
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Post by emergency_pants »

I noticed recently that a german site (can't rememer now - it may have been the Fahrrad Manufaktur site itself?) lists the Fahrrad Manufaktur T400 with lower spec components, which could make it a really good value expedition bike, I reckon. That's if you're not so bothered about having the best gear components. They range from Rohloff down to Deore 24 speed.

I couldn't find any British retailers which do that full selection though.

The Trenga TDH - 10 looks nice but at 2,500 euro I can't see how that is worth going to the trouble. The Fahrrad T400 is much cheaper at £875 though! I'd prefer a Steel Thorn Sherpa for that money.

I'm not sure whether you'll get a better bike than anything easily obtainable in the UK, such as a Dawes, Thorn or Roberts. For that money could you get a Roberts Roughstuff? Woo! Or a really nice Thorn Expedition bike!
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syklist
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Re: German touring bikes

Post by syklist »

Thomas wrote:Hello all

This is my first post here, but I've been watching you for a while :lol:

I want to do some touring around central Germany next summer, and I'm looking for a proper bike to do the job.

I've seen some German brands (Trenga, Fahrrad Manufaktur, Ghost) and I really like the way they look and some of their standard and distinctive features: hydraulic rim brakes, dynamo hubs, BUMM lights...

My question is, has anybody actually ridden any of those bikes?, do you think they are capable of riding some off rode fully loaded? (I'll be in Germany this year, but next one I might be in South America or Russia).

They seem like just city bikes to me, and I'm not sure at all about them.

My other bet is any Dawes, which are reliable tourers.

Thanks in advance, Thomas.


Yes we have a brace of VSF (Fahrrad Manufaktur) T400 Rohloffs 2008 models. We bought them here in the Netherlands from the only dealer who sells them here. Excellent bikes.

Pros
For the components you get (SON dynamo B&M lights Rohloff Tubus rear rack Magura brakes) these bikes are far and away the cheapest on the Dutch market.

They ride really well. We did 2500km in Norway last summer a few weeks after buying the bikes. We fitted lowriders on the front and Travel Contact tyres instead of the City Contacts, mainly because we had experience with the Travel Contact tyres on our old tourers. We carried four panniers and handlebar bags + water and fuel bottles on the frames and the bikes were stable and a joy to ride at speeds over 60 km/h.

The City Contacts give an amazing ride when used at the right pressure. These tyres work well on uphill on loose surfaces even thought they are almost slick. The bikes do feel a bit wobblier than when using Travel Contacts at higher pressures. I am going to put the City Contact tyres back on my bike to give them another try this spring.

The Magura brakes are excellent. I remember one moment downhill rushing for a ferry where I braked hard from 45km/h down to ten in what seemed to be an unbelievably short distance. They inspire confidence. We are still running the brake blocks the bikes came with.

The SON dynamos and B&M lights can be used during the day without any noticeable drag. On automatic setting the lights come on almost instantly as you enter a tunnel. The lights are very bright and produce light from around 3-4km/hr (useful when in a tunnel that climbs).

The bikes seem to be very strong. On exiting a fast downhill tunnel in Norway the road dropped away from me. It was as if I had cycled off the kerb at 50+km/h. No apparent damage at all.

We did around 200km of off road or poor quality asphalt during the trip. Some of this was on rain sodden sand and grit, at other times the surface was rougher. The bikes behaved excellently in these situations, much better than the old ones. The rims are still straight after the holiday.

The mudguards on the T400 are very wide indeed and keep the dirt off quite well. There is also good clearance between mudguards and tyres. The Hebie Chainglider chainguard does keep oil off your legs.

Rohloffs are just amazing.


Cons
A bit on the heavy side but then again so are we.

We might take off the chainguards at some point. They work well but the grinding noise they make if water gets in is a bit irritating.

I found I had to put my rear panniers as far forward as they would go. If not I got a strange oscillation which affected the steering. Once that was sorted the bike felt very secure.

We didn't find the standard saddles (Selle Royal Respiro) very comfortable, and these were replaced almost immediately.

With the current Euro Pound exchange rate they probably look a bit pricey.

All in all we're very satisfied with the bikes. Low maintenance well specced comfortable touring bikes once you put a good saddle on them. Total maintenance on the Norway tour was to oil the chains once and adjust the brakes a few times.

HTH
Stan
So long and thanks for all the fish...
Thomas
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Post by Thomas »

Thanks for your answers, I think I found what I was looking for.

The current Euro Pound exchange rate isn`t really a con (for me at least), because I'm not British and I don't live in the UK either... :lol:

I'm not sure about Rohloffs. Extra weight and extra cost...

Those German bikes are more or less what I've got at home, but much better quality. That's for I'm thinking about a British one: I could ride it as a sort of heavy Audax while not on holidays... and that's 46 weeks a year!
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syklist
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Post by syklist »

Thomas wrote:Thanks for your answers, I think I found what I was looking for.

The current Euro Pound exchange rate isn`t really a con (for me at least), because I'm not British and I don't live in the UK either... :lol:

I'm not sure about Rohloffs. Extra weight and extra cost...


Extra peace of mind and in the long run cheaper. You also get very used to being able to shift gear when not moving. The weight difference between a 27 sp derailieur set and a Rohloff is a lot less than a small bidon full of water. Plus you can leave some of your tools behind which saves more weight.

Thomas wrote: Those German bikes are more or less what I've got at home, but much better quality. That's for I'm thinking about a British one: I could ride it as a sort of heavy Audax while not on holidays... and that's 46 weeks a year!


Well if we had waited until this year to get a new bike I would probably have gone for a British bike given the current exchange rates. Last year the T400's we bought were better value for money than similar Thorn bikes with Rohloffs.

Cheers
Stan
So long and thanks for all the fish...
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meic
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Post by meic »

We have a VSF in the garage. My wife had it built to order by a co-operative factory in Bremen 20-ish years ago. It was built for a trek around Iceland and it is built like a tank! Too heavy for my liking but most of its componentry was real quality and stil going with little maintenance.

And it has 700C wheels.

In the 4 years that I have been involved in cycling this is the first time that I have discovered that the bikes sold by bike fix are VSF's, they dont put the letters on their adverts.
Yma o Hyd
willem jongman
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Post by willem jongman »

The Fahrradmanufaktur T 400 is probably the best affordable serious touring bike in the euro zone. The comparison with British bikes like the Thorn Sherpa has much to do with the exchange rate. For years, UK bikes were not competitive because the pound was so vastly overvalued. At the current exchange rate the Thorn Sherpa is suddenly a serious competitor, especially if like me you really like drop bars.
Willem
chris217
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Re: German touring bikes

Post by chris217 »

Hi
I have read the posts on German Touring bikes with interest.Mainly I suppose because I sell them in my shop Chris's Bikes in Cambridge.The most interesting thing is that I am finding that price wise you get more equipment and much better quality from a Cycle Union bike than from major large manufacturers such as Giant Trek etc.(Cycle Union is an Umbrella term for the company making 4 brands of cycles of which one is Fahrrad Manufaktur or VSF as many of you prefer.)I have been selling these bikes since 2001 but with the Cycle to Work Scheme sell many more now .They work well for many years, can stand outside year after year without rusting and are effortless to pedal even though some can be quite heavy.But remember they are fully loaded with equipment including hub dynamos running with standlights front and rear.I have sold several T400's and people who have bought them say they ride better the more you use them(which is always good).

The most popular T400 tends to be the one running on Deore (now SLX)27 speed although the Deore /Alivio version would be plenty good enough for most long trips.At well under £700 it is great value.

If anybody needs help or advice by all means contact me - see the website link in my profile ( normally over there => ) - or type Fahrrad manufaktur into google and I am usually on first couple of lines.
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simon153
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Re: German touring bikes

Post by simon153 »

I bought a T400 LX earlier this year and I am very happy with it so far. I sold my Thorn Sherpa before buying this bike so I'm probably in a good position to compare. All I would say is that they are very different bicycles especially as my Sherpa was on drops. The major difference was that I felt the Sherpa was inferior on finish quality and components ( at the same price). The paintwork did appear thin, much thinner than on my old Thorn Tandem and I certainly didn't get the level of equipment for the same price as on the Fahrrad. These bikes have a very thick even paint finish and are ( to date ) pretty tough.It's good to get a bike which comes with Tubus racks and a quality hub dynamo/lights set up as standard. Neither bike was affected by a heavy load and remained stable.
I quite often take the Fahrrad off the road , nothing too difficult but I've done some easy woodland paths and some unmade paths across fields which it manages easily and my panniers remained securely fixed so I imagine it would handle most trail type paths in Europe quite easily. The only thing I've changed is the tyres which came with it, Continental's folding touring tyre similar to the Schwalbe Marathon XR. I've replaced them with straight Marathon Plus tyres and it runs better on the road and off the road.
If you are put off by the price Fahrrad also do a T400 with a lower equipmet spec as a straight deore which comes in at about £600. It's still the same excellent steel frame .
So although it is a fair amount of initial outlay ( I got mine on the Cycle scheme where at £970 it comes just under the limit) look at the cost of a new Galaxy or a similarly specced Thorn and it starts to look like pretty good value.
travelling
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Re: German touring bikes

Post by travelling »

When I was considering a tourer three popped into the radar

the koga world traveller, the thorn sherpa and one I had never heard of an intec https://www.soniccycles.co.uk/products2.php

Koga was an issue with avaliability with so many dealers not having any and dealers dropping the mark, intec I couldn't find anyone who had one to give a review so ended up with a thorn sherpa..loved the bike but the quality of the paint was dissapointing

however a friend is looking for a bike and again intec is being considered

I agree on the thorn paint issue as mine was painted and a friends s thorn was powder coated both seemed incredibly thin coats and considering the intended use I was somewhat suprised although having since researched more it does seem as though thorns are getting more issues from owners around paint issues and I think a review on bike radar recently on the thorn nomad ss mentioned also the powder coating seemed very thin

considered at best use it's going to be a world tourer and this is not a cheap bike you would expect the outer coating to be tougher than an 80 quid bike from halfords
I have the lightest bike in the world....then I put my fattest body in the world on it...the only pounds that have been lost are from my bank account
simonhill
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Re: German touring bikes

Post by simonhill »

What does the Fahrrad T400 weigh - I've never found it on the spec?
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syklist
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Re: German touring bikes

Post by syklist »

simonhill wrote:What does the Fahrrad T400 weigh - I've never found it on the spec?

See
http://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/T400_Ro ... 4G_34.html

http://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/T400_Sh ... 7G_35.html

The Rohloff and Deore versions say 15.2kg

http://www.fahrradmanufaktur.de/T400_Sr ... 9G_36.html the SRAM i-motion version seems rather heavier.

HTH
Stan
So long and thanks for all the fish...
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simon153
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Re: German touring bikes

Post by simon153 »

One of the posts above refers to buying a steel Thorn as an alternative. I just wanted to reiterate that the T400 is beautifully built from steel and not aluminium.
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syklist
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Re: German touring bikes

Post by syklist »

simon153 wrote:One of the posts above refers to buying a steel Thorn as an alternative. I just wanted to reiterate that the T400 is beautifully built from steel and not aluminium.

Not to mention built like a brick outhouse. I ran mine fully laden into a kerb at 20km/h earlier in the year, a tired end of day sort of accident on a bad bit of road. I could not find any damage to the frame or front forks. The front rim had a slight wobble which was easily corrected at the time. The rim only started showing signs of terminal distress during the last part of our summer holiday in Norway more than 2000km later and was replaced as a precaution. Oh and the Hebie Chainglider now needs a cable tie to keep it on.

In contrast, I ended up on painkillers for three weeks and still have a red patch on my chest where I hit the handlebars. I'm certainly not built like a T400 ;) Great bikes!
Cheers
Stan
So long and thanks for all the fish...
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