America: the bizarre

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
TonyR
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by TonyR »

Vorpal wrote:I think maybe the doorman wasn't local. Hartford (Connecticutt?) is known to have high crime, but most of it is limited to the area known as the 'North End' People who don't live in Hartford (my cousin did for many years) tend to think it's all bad. In fact, most of it is fine.


If he was in Washington DC though it would be good advice. Some no go areas are very close to some of the major hotels. Always best to ask the doorman's advice in a new city before walking out.

I have also though had similar advice from a hotel doorman in Birmingham (UK not Alabama!)
irc
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by irc »

I'd say if you avoid the obvious inner city areas the USA is fairly safe. I've cycled coast to coast 3 times mainly in small town America and never felt unsafe at any time. Even riding through areas of obvious poverty I never felt I was at any personal risk. I have many American relatives none of whom with one exception* have experienced serious personal violence. I was advised to be cautious when I cycled across Lansing, Michigan, especially the west side. Crossing it was a non event. I went through in the morning and the general vibe was of a place I wouldn't choose to hang about after dark but absolutely fine during the day. But Glasgow has a few places like that. As a cyclist in the USA the biggest danger is like most places from traffic.

On one tour I couldn't find a camp site one night before dark and ended up in a cheap motel in a dodgy part of a medium sized town. Most rooms rented by the week. No tourists and nowhere near a tourist area anyway. I was hit on for a "loan" by another resident as before I even got into my room. The other residents hanging around looked like the cast of Jeremy Kyle. I cut my losses by locking my bike in my room and walking with my new friend to the nearest 7:Eleven. After buying him a beer and myself a beer an a sandwich I locked myself in my room for the night. A quiet night apart from getting woken up around 1AM by the police hammering on the door of the next room. Seems they were looking for the resident in connection with an incident along the road shortly before.

As for the OPs idea of a poverty porn tour from Detroit to the west coast? Chances are that it would be safe enough. Americans I've met, rich, poor, and in the middle have almost all been friendly and welcoming. Maybe they just are all friendly? Maybe as a bike tourist you can't be pigeonholed so people take you the way they find you and you do likewise. My advice would be to book accommodation ahead in places like the HI International Hostels and do any city exploration from the hostel with local advice as to what areas to visit. The hostels are sometimes in the less desirable areas. IME these hostels are friendly and the staff are switched on. Even the friendliest place has the odd bad apple that is best avoided.


* The exception. My cousin's husband worked for a while as a night porter in a downtown hotel. He usually sat behind a bulletproof screen and there was buzzer controlled access to the lobby. Even so he twice had sawn off shotguns pointed at him when for different reasons he was caught in the main lobby. But this was Detroit in the late 1960s/early 70s when many areas were still no go for whites after the late 60s riots.
Last edited by irc on 24 Jan 2016, 1:51am, edited 1 time in total.
Vorpal
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by Vorpal »

There are actually very few 'no go' areas in the USA, despite what people think, despite reputations, and even despite what locals may tell you. Everyone in each town or city knows where the 'bad' area of town is. New York, Chicago, LA, DC; they have areas that I wouldn't go into, but few other towns and cities do. What most people think is a rough area is usually just where the poor people live, or where minorities live. And there is a great deal of prejudice (against poor &/or minority populations) built into popular ideas of the 'bad' neighborhooods. The people who live there are like you & me, only with less money. No more; no less. Even in areas with high crime, the chances of a particular person being mugged or something don't necessarily go up very much compared to 'nice' neighborhoods.

I lived in or near a number of neighborhoods in the USA that other people would say were bad neighborhoods. I am absolutely convinced form my experience that 99% of what people believe about 'bad' neighborhoods is mainly prejudice, fed by urban stories and myths.

Neighborhoods that look run down, or populated mainly by minorities are just that. The run down look can be largely attributed to absentee landlords. It doesn't make the neighborhoods unsafe or the people bad.

If America is bizarre, it is mainly in the lack of a social safety net that produces such neighborhoods.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
pwa
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by pwa »

al_yrpal wrote:PWA my wife never wanted to go to America but I persuaded her. On the first morning in Los Angeles she was smitten. Since then we have visited America nine times on holiday. In NYC there tend to be cops on every corner, if you stare at a map someone black or white will appear at your shoulder offering help. You get used to never eating alone when people spot your accent. We have three main groups of friends in various areas and have enjoyed staying with them as they enjoy coming here. America is a great country with lots of genuinely nice people. I too dislike the gun laws and culture, but you cannot damn a whole country for that or for their politics. Go!

Al


Al, I am sure your assessment of life in USA is correct and, as I said, I am confident that it has a lot of good things (and people) in its favour. Safety on the streets just happens not to be one of those things. But safety is not everything. When I walk in the Alps I know that I put myself at some heightened physical risk, and I accept that as a price I must pay.

(I'm not likely to visit because I don't fly and my swimming badges only go to 200 metres, but that's another topic.....)
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by Vorpal »

pwa, safety on the streets in the USA is not, in most places, substantially worse for a tourist than it is most places in the UK.

There are all sorts of places, including popular cruise destinations like the Bahamas, Antigua, St. Lucia, or the US Vrigin Islands, where tourists are much more likely to be at risk, because they are specifically targetted in armed robberies. Cruise lines paint pictures of idyllic tropical islands, and don't warn people of the potential for crime. Robberies gone wrong result in murder rates that beat out some of the worst neighborhoods in the USA, and corruption and differing legal systems sometimes mean that there is little change in the situations in some fo these places. The Bahamas has been on a 'critical' list in the USA because of the high crime rate for many years.

Yet, people keep going. Have you ever been on a cruise? If so, you were probably more at risk in at least one port than you would be in New York city. Crime statistcs don't necessarily translate to risk. Yes, the US had a gun problem; I won't deny that, but it doesn't make it an unsafe place to travel. Statistically, the murder rate in the USA is comparable to the number of deaths in road traffic crashes in the UK. Do you avoid going out in the UK due to this risk? Or avoid driving? Or do you simply mitigate your risk by taking care, wearing a seat belt and staying home when the weather is extreme? It's the same concept as avoiding known high crime areas, taking care of your posessions (e.g. with the use of a money belt, etc.), at least in popular tourist areas, etc.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
pwa
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by pwa »

Vorpal wrote:pwa, safety on the streets in the USA is not, in most places, substantially worse for a tourist than it is most places in the UK.

There are all sorts of places, including popular cruise destinations like the Bahamas, Antigua, St. Lucia, or the US Vrigin Islands, where tourists are much more likely to be at risk, because they are specifically targetted in armed robberies. Cruise lines paint pictures of idyllic tropical islands, and don't warn people of the potential for crime. Robberies gone wrong result in murder rates that beat out some of the worst neighborhoods in the USA, and corruption and differing legal systems sometimes mean that there is little change in the situations in some fo these places. The Bahamas has been on a 'critical' list in the USA because of the high crime rate for many years.

Yet, people keep going. Have you ever been on a cruise? If so, you were probably more at risk in at least one port than you would be in New York city. Crime statistcs don't necessarily translate to risk. Yes, the US had a gun problem; I won't deny that, but it doesn't make it an unsafe place to travel. Statistically, the murder rate in the USA is comparable to the number of deaths in road traffic crashes in the UK. Do you avoid going out in the UK due to this risk? Or avoid driving? Or do you simply mitigate your risk by taking care, wearing a seat belt and staying home when the weather is extreme? It's the same concept as avoiding known high crime areas, taking care of your posessions (e.g. with the use of a money belt, etc.), at least in popular tourist areas, etc.


My comment about safety on US streets was in response to the OP's suggestion of cycling around the run-down areas of Detroit, and my impression that with a murder rate 32 times that of the UK the USA scores badly when it comes to personal safety. And UK tourists are much more likely to be shot dead on a visit to the US than on a holiday in the UK. I don't believe tourists are protected by a halo of safety that US citizens don't have, and being on a bicycle involves increased exposure to any nutcase with a gun. That would make me feel uneasy on holiday, especially if I got into an argument with a driver. Or a police officer.

I have also said that safety isn't everything, and we all accept certain risks as a price to pay for perceived rewards. It's a personal risk / benefit analysis and it has little or nothing to do with my choice not to visit the USA.
TonyR
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by TonyR »

Vorpal wrote:I lived in or near a number of neighborhoods in the USA that other people would say were bad neighborhoods. I am absolutely convinced form my experience that 99% of what people believe about 'bad' neighborhoods is mainly prejudice, fed by urban stories and myths.

Neighborhoods that look run down, or populated mainly by minorities are just that. The run down look can be largely attributed to absentee landlords. It doesn't make the neighborhoods unsafe or the people bad.

If America is bizarre, it is mainly in the lack of a social safety net that produces such neighborhoods.


True but the difference from such areas in the UK is the drug and crime cultures that gravitate to such areas are armed and conditioned to using them. They don't have much of a problem with tourists because they generally don't go to such areas and a lot of the killings are internal feuds but when they do there can be problems - vide the deaths of two British tourists in Florida a few years ago when they ended up in the wrong area late at night - especially if you happen across an addict looking to gethis next fix. When I am in the US I do take care of where I go and don't go and check because the lines are moving all the time.
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by Vorpal »

pwa wrote: a murder rate 32 times that of the UK the USA scores badly when it comes to personal safety.

Where do you get this number? As far as I know, the murder rate in the USA is about 3.8 times that in the UK. Do you have data or statistics form somewhere? It doesn't sound even vaguely realistic to me.
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roberts8
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by roberts8 »

Hiked but not cycled in the US. From the madness of Vegas it is an easy drive to Bryce Canyon NP, Zion NP and Death Valley.
All are well run areas and fantastic open spaces where it easy to get away from the crowds. The U.S. is worth visiting, just pick what suits you.
irc
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by irc »

Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote: a murder rate 32 times that of the UK the USA scores badly when it comes to personal safety.

Where do you get this number? As far as I know, the murder rate in the USA is about 3.8 times that in the UK. Do you have data or statistics form somewhere? It doesn't sound even vaguely realistic to me.



It's nonsense. UK is 11 murders per million p0opulation. USA is 42 per million population.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-inf ... ates/Crime

The national stats conceal variations of course. Detroit where the OP considered cycling through has a murder rate of 450 per million. Stay away from high crime cities and the USA is fairly safe.

http://www.fastcompany.com/3046065/a-ma ... dal-places
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by Vorpal »

TonyR wrote:
Vorpal wrote:I lived in or near a number of neighborhoods in the USA that other people would say were bad neighborhoods. I am absolutely convinced form my experience that 99% of what people believe about 'bad' neighborhoods is mainly prejudice, fed by urban stories and myths.

Neighborhoods that look run down, or populated mainly by minorities are just that. The run down look can be largely attributed to absentee landlords. It doesn't make the neighborhoods unsafe or the people bad.

If America is bizarre, it is mainly in the lack of a social safety net that produces such neighborhoods.


True but the difference from such areas in the UK is the drug and crime cultures that gravitate to such areas are armed and conditioned to using them. They don't have much of a problem with tourists because they generally don't go to such areas and a lot of the killings are internal feuds but when they do there can be problems - vide the deaths of two British tourists in Florida a few years ago when they ended up in the wrong area late at night - especially if you happen across an addict looking to gethis next fix. When I am in the US I do take care of where I go and don't go and check because the lines are moving all the time.

What I am saying is that the drug and crime cultures simply aren't as prevalent as people think. Your example of the British tourists is an *extremely* uncommon occurrence. Yes, there are places where it's adviseable that non residents just don't go. But there aren't as many of them as people think. The neighborhoods where I lived weren't really bad. They were minority. Most were ethnically mixed. One neighborhood where I lived outside Chicago was largely hispanic. One of my colleagues said it was stupid of me to live there because of the 'gang bangers'. You know what? I never once saw any evidence of criminal activity, unless you count a little grafitti. No drugs, no guns, no robberies, nothing. I didn't feel nervous late at night; I never even had a car broken into there, which is more than I can say of some of the 'nice' neighborhoods I lived in.

The vast majority of those murders are done by someone who knows the victim. Roughly 16% are people who are killed by an intimate partner, and 20% are people who intervened in a domestic dispute. Most of the remaining are arguments, or revenge killings. The numbers of gang related killings, although certainly higher in major cities than elsewhere, were estimated to be be between 15 & 18% in 2011 -2012*. You have to keep in mind, though, that any numbers estimating the numbers of deaths due to gang violence have to be treated with a great deal of caution, as they are based upon 'on the ground' information. It's not as though gang members report violence in their jurisdictions. :shock:

In other words, the chance that a tourist would be killed is very, very small, even if s/he does wander into the wrong neighborhood. Most tourists killed in the USA die from exposure or drowning or something while they are fishing, hunting, hiking, etc. Not from violence. Those two British deaths in Miami were newsworthy because they are so very unusual.

p.s. for anyone who is interested, there is a website that tracks tourist deaths. It's at http://touristkilled.com/

* https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/surv ... g-problems
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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TonyR
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by TonyR »

Vorpal wrote:One neighborhood where I lived outside Chicago was largely hispanic. One of my colleagues said it was stupid of me to live there because of the 'gang bangers'. You know what? I never once saw any evidence of criminal activity, unless you count a little grafitti. No drugs, no guns, no robberies, nothing. I didn't feel nervous late at night; I never even had a car broken into there, which is more than I can say of some of the 'nice' neighborhoods I lived in.


My brother in law worked in South Chicago for many years. The standing policy was if you were leaving the office after hours you had to request an armed guard to you car in the lot.

In other words, the chance that a tourist would be killed is very, very small, even if s/he does wander into the wrong neighborhood. Most tourists killed in the USA die from exposure or drowning or something while they are fishing, hunting, hiking, etc. Not from violence. Those two British deaths in Miami were newsworthy because they are so very unusual.


Yes because usually tourists go nowhere near those areas. The Briish deaths in Miami were unusual because tourists did not go to that area. That doesn't mean as a tourist you would be safe in those areas if you did go as the two Brits found out.

I'm not saying that the whole of the US is like that - most is very safe - but there are areas where it is not a good idea to go as a tourist.
pwa
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by pwa »

Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote: a murder rate 32 times that of the UK the USA scores badly when it comes to personal safety.

Where do you get this number? As far as I know, the murder rate in the USA is about 3.8 times that in the UK. Do you have data or statistics form somewhere? It doesn't sound even vaguely realistic to me.


It is about 2 years old and came (to me, at least) from a BBC Panorama programme. Canada was also pretty bad, at 16 times UK levels. But looking at figures from the World Bank, I must have got this wrong. Apologies. The figures must be for gun crime fatalities alone, not homicides generally. For homicides, the World Bank puts the USA at 4 times UK levels, and Canada at about UK levels.

Certain US cities seem to be real hot spots. Baltimore and Chicago seem to have real issues.

As I said before, risk of physical harm is not everything. Nobody would climb Everest or even go skiing if we let physical danger dictate our actions all the time. And life is always fatal.

Apologies again for misinformation.
Last edited by pwa on 25 Jan 2016, 8:03am, edited 1 time in total.
rualexander
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by rualexander »

pwa wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote: a murder rate 32 times that of the UK the USA scores badly when it comes to personal safety.

Where do you get this number? As far as I know, the murder rate in the USA is about 3.8 times that in the UK. Do you have data or statistics form somewhere? It doesn't sound even vaguely realistic to me.


It is about 2 years old and came (to me, at least) from a BBC Panorama programme. Canada was also pretty bad, at 16 times UK murder levels.


Your memory must be playing up, Canada's rate is 1.4 times the UK rate, USA is 3.8 times UK, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... icide_rate
pwa
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Re: America: the bizarre

Post by pwa »

Yep, please look at my edited comment.
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