touring on a trad touring bike?

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
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pete75
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by pete75 »

khain wrote:
pete75 wrote:Your by omission remark is interpreting what I said to mean what you want it to.
Personally I find it quicker and easier to pump a small volume tyre up to a high pressure with a low volume pump like an HPX than to inflate a lower pressure large volume tyre with the same - the latter takes much more time .
BTW I've yet to see a track pump that isn't a hand pump though doubtless some electric pumps are available.

I think it's called a hand pump because you hold it in your hands rather than have it sit on the ground.

Bike terminology is often a bit confused: v-brakes, clip-less pedals ...

It may be quicker to pump up high pressure tyres, assuming you're a body builder, but it certainly isn't easier.


People differ. You may not regard it as easier I do.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
simonhill
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by simonhill »

Interesting(?) the way these debates so often get onto straights versus drops, plus 26 v 700. It got me thinking.

I wonder how many of the pro drop brigade have multiple bikes. Their tourer is only another in a large stable of bikes. They will have lightweight road bikes, obviously with drops and the tourer is probably their heaviest steed.

How many of the straight brigade only have one bike. I do, its my Surly which I tour on, then unpack when I get home and use it to ride to the shops. I also use it for my day rides around Essex, where I am frequently overtaken by swifter road bikes. I don't care as I know I ride slowly.

In other words, the droppers will be comparing their tourer with their lighter and swifter steeds, while people like me are happy pedalling what they know.

Now comes the generalisation and conclusion:

I s'pose, I consider myself a tourist who rides a bike, whereas maybe the droppers are (first and foremost) cyclist who tour.
pwa
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by pwa »

simonhill wrote:Interesting(?) the way these debates so often get onto straights versus drops, plus 26 v 700. It got me thinking.

I wonder how many of the pro drop brigade have multiple bikes. Their tourer is only another in a large stable of bikes. They will have lightweight road bikes, obviously with drops and the tourer is probably their heaviest steed.

How many of the straight brigade only have one bike. I do, its my Surly which I tour on, then unpack when I get home and use it to ride to the shops. I also use it for my day rides around Essex, where I am frequently overtaken by swifter road bikes. I don't care as I know I ride slowly.

In other words, the droppers will be comparing their tourer with their lighter and swifter steeds, while people like me are happy pedalling what they know.

Now comes the generalisation and conclusion:

I s'pose, I consider myself a tourist who rides a bike, whereas maybe the droppers are (first and foremost) cyclist who tour.


No, I'm first and foremost a tourer / leisure cyclist who has dabbled in audax and has done a lot of commuting. I have two drop bar bikes, one for audax and one tourer for general use and loaded touring. I also have a straight bar touring tandem with 26" wheels and Rohloff gearing. The latter has Ergon grips with the long bar ends. My preference for drops is based on these bikes.
bretonbikes
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by bretonbikes »

Tangled Metal wrote:
simonhill wrote:Of course if I was sensible I would change to drops because they would be so much better!

It's just a choice you make. One type of bar works for some but not for others. My partner is a flat bar rider and would never get drop bars. I learnt I'm a drop bar rider after trying flat bar bike out for a year.

I probably have a good reason for this, that is pain from riding with flat bars. A ride over a few hours and I'd need to change hand position often between several hand positions. I need to be able to have the hand rotated around from the hand on the hoods, drops and flat tops, plus a few intermediate positions too. Hand locked in one position for me puts strain on my elbows, result is pain and a grinding noise in the joint that I can actually feel. Not good. BTW I believe it's due to damage from whitewater kayaking.


It's interesting that the penchant for drop bars on touring bikes is also a bit of a national thing. The Brits and some Americans use them, but the default touring set-up on the continent are flat bars. You see a few French on drops (but a minority) perhaps because most tourists are ex/current racers, but the biggest groups of cycletourists are from Germany and Holland - both countries where you'll rarely see a drop-barred tourer.

I also fear it may well be generational - 25 years ago when we started business the majority of our customers chose drop-barred tourers, as of now, with a fleet of 60 touring bikes, only 6 are drop-barred and they rarely go out.

Needless to say, both of my own tourers, and my wife's are drop-barred.
38 years of cycletouring, 33 years of running cycling holidays, 8 years of running a campsite for cyclists - there's a pattern here...
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bigjim
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by bigjim »

but the biggest groups of cycletourists are from Germany and Holland - both countries where you'll rarely see a drop-barred tourer.
Culture thing in my opinion. Both countries are heavily into utility cycling from birth. It's part of their life and flat bars are all they have ever known, so it's perfectly rational to transfer this to touring cycles.
bretonbikes
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by bretonbikes »

bigjim wrote:
but the biggest groups of cycletourists are from Germany and Holland - both countries where you'll rarely see a drop-barred tourer.
Culture thing in my opinion. Both countries are heavily into utility cycling from birth. It's part of their life and flat bars are all they have ever known, so it's perfectly rational to transfer this to touring cycles.


Of course, just as their decline in the UK is down to a generation knowing nothing but mountainbikes.
38 years of cycletouring, 33 years of running cycling holidays, 8 years of running a campsite for cyclists - there's a pattern here...
reohn2
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by reohn2 »

al_yrpal wrote:My steel Salsa Vaya begins to struggle with a touring load and camping gear on the road

Have you fitted a decent steel Tubus rack on it yet?

and its just about ok on smooth surface off road unloaded.

That I find hard to believe,I have two Vaya's that I ride off road on some pretty technical stuff and rough stuff,on slicks(one on 37c and one on 40c Hypers)and they take such terrain in there stride without issue.

It wouldnt be suitable for a camping trip that involved off road riding

That would depend on a few things,not least the amount of weight you expect to carry and how it's distributed on the bike.
If all of a heavy load is on the rear you'll struggle with any bike and whilst IMHO a Vaya can't be described as a heavy duty/expedition tourer,it's certainly a capable load carrier.
A quick google will challenge your findings.

.
I never rode my Galaxy with camping gear on a tour but I dont think it would be ideal. It was a lively twitchy steed.

Another statement I find hard to take,I had a '97(last of the UK built 531ST) Galaxy for 15years that I toured on with a camping load and light loads,as well as using as my main winter bike.
I'd never describe a Galaxy as twitchy or lively,stable and solid,would be like the words that spring to mind.
Edited for typos.
Last edited by reohn2 on 8 Jan 2016, 4:47pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bretonbikes
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by bretonbikes »

reohn2 wrote:
al_yrpal wrote:My steel Salsa Vaya begins to struggle with a touring load and camping gear on the road

Have you fitted a decent steel Tubus rack on it yet?



I'll second that. A lot of wobbling and flexing frames are actually just a rack swinging back and forth - something I discovered early on in our business when following customers. Some frames can tank-slap with a flexi rack but feel just fine with something really solid.
38 years of cycletouring, 33 years of running cycling holidays, 8 years of running a campsite for cyclists - there's a pattern here...
reohn2
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by reohn2 »

willem jongman wrote:I use drop bars on a gravel grinder with wide and fast 26 inch tyres. I think it is perfect for anything short of truly demanding off road riding. But for that I would want suspension as well. So my bike handles tarmac, gravel roads and forest trails with ease, and I think it is the perfect compromise for tours in Europe. I normally take only rear panniers, but on a recent trip combining business with pleasure I also had to take front panniers, and that was fine too (other than heavier). Brakes are Magura HS66 hydraulic rim brakes and they are powerful enough. V brakes with the Tektro v brake levers for drop bars are also fine, according to friends who have used them (but only with bar end or downtube shifters, of course). In short, there is sweet spot in between the two styles of tractor bikes and traditional British tourers.


Is this because of the smaller wheel size or the bike's ability to take much larger tyre?
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khain
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by khain »

pwa wrote:I'm a bit surprised that you didn't find drops good on Alpine roads. That is where I find them best. The idea of undertaking a ten mile climb with straight bars is not appealing. For me the hands on hoods position is perfect for climbing, just shifting my hands around occasionally to avoid discomfort. I find straights, even with bar ends, have no good climbing position.

I've never had a problem climbing on a mountain bike. The clue is in the name surely. The straight bars are better for climbing because you need more control (due to lack of forward momentum) and better for descents because you need more control and stronger braking. The comfort side is subjective and personally I don't think there's much in it but surely it's an objective fact that straight bars have more steering power. That matters when you're carrying heavy loads on mountains.
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RickH
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by RickH »

khain wrote:I've never had a problem climbing on a mountain bike. The clue is in the name surely. The straight bars are better for climbing because you need more control (due to lack of forward momentum) and better for descents because you need more control and stronger braking. The comfort side is subjective and personally I don't think there's much in it but surely it's an objective fact that straight bars have more steering power. That matters when you're carrying heavy loads on mountains.

I much prefer the drops & don't like wide bars so it isn't a "done deal".

My mountain bike bars are cut down to the minimum length that would still fit the controls the grips & the bar ends. The bar ends are what I use most of the time when climbing & as often as possible at other times. I was out on a group ride and was the only one who could ride through the "A" barriers we encountered at several places. I can't say I've ever missed the extra width.

My tandem came with straight bars, which I chopped down, & I have since droppised them with drop bar ends (& V brake drop levers plus interrupters where the original brake levers were). They are still slightly wider than the drop bars on my road bike (which I ride off road quite frequently). I would prefer them narrower but wanted to keep the front bars just a fraction wider than the stoker bars so I know that if the front fits through a gap the back will too as it does get taken on off road routes fairly often.

I've contemplated converting the mountainbike to drops but may go down the gravel bike or CX route instead.

Rick.
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PH
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by PH »

I ride on bikes with drop or straight bars, commuting, touring, Audax, it's never been as issue. The bar end position on my straight bars isn't that dissimilar to the hoods position on the drops. If I was a racing snake I'd be able to get more aerodynamic on drops, but I'm not and I can't. On really tough off road I can see there would be an advantage in wider straight bars, but that's not my sort of cycling and I've seen enough people off road on drops to claim that applies to everyone. IMO getting the hand position that suites is a much ignored part of bike fit, many people seem to choose the bars on looks and work around them.
Merry_Wanderer
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by Merry_Wanderer »

Has anyone read any Albert Winstanley books? My copy of Golden Days Awheel shows Albert on a steel framed trad British touring bike with drop bars (slightly flared outwards like Salsa Woodchipper bars), 700 wheels and something like 32mm tyres. There are nice pics of the heavily laden tourer in the Lairig Ghru, off road in Ireland and on the front cover he is descending a rough track from Mosedale in the Lake District
khain
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by khain »

Merry_Wanderer wrote:Has anyone read any Albert Winstanley books? My copy of Golden Days Awheel shows Albert on a steel framed trad British touring bike with drop bars (slightly flared outwards like Salsa Woodchipper bars), 700 wheels and something like 32mm tyres. There are nice pics of the heavily laden tourer in the Lairig Ghru, off road in Ireland and on the front cover he is descending a rough track from Mosedale in the Lake District

And I recently saw a video of Danny Macaskill cycle the Cuillin ridge on a mountain bike. Just because something can be done doesn't make it recommended practice.
khain
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Re: touring on a trad touring bike?

Post by khain »

RickH wrote:I much prefer the drops & don't like wide bars so it isn't a "done deal".

My mountain bike bars are cut down to the minimum length that would still fit the controls the grips & the bar ends. The bar ends are what I use most of the time when climbing & as often as possible at other times. I was out on a group ride and was the only one who could ride through the "A" barriers we encountered at several places. I can't say I've ever missed the extra width.

My tandem came with straight bars, which I chopped down, & I have since droppised them with drop bar ends (& V brake drop levers plus interrupters where the original brake levers were). They are still slightly wider than the drop bars on my road bike (which I ride off road quite frequently). I would prefer them narrower but wanted to keep the front bars just a fraction wider than the stoker bars so I know that if the front fits through a gap the back will too as it does get taken on off road routes fairly often.

I've contemplated converting the mountainbike to drops but may go down the gravel bike or CX route instead.

Rick.

No accounting for taste but generally straight bars are preferred for off-road. Maybe if you didn't cut them you would notice the extra power. It kind of defeats the purpose to cut them. The bike geometry is important too of course.

At the end of the day it's a compromise for most riders: steering power or comfort. Wide straight bars have more steering power though. That's just physics.
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