Rain Jacket

Cycle-touring, Expeditions, Adventures, Major cycle routes NOT LeJoG (see other special board)
gdlerner
Posts: 67
Joined: 12 May 2010, 8:12am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Rain Jacket

Post by gdlerner »

Can somebody recommend me a good rain jacket with minimun 15000mm water resisten and breathable with a hood and not more expensive then 150€.I use to have a Vaude I was not happy I own now endura luminite and is not waterproof any more I try many diferents things and I can make it waterproof anymore any help
Thanks
gdlerner
Posts: 67
Joined: 12 May 2010, 8:12am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by gdlerner »

Nobody ride on the rain???
22camels
Posts: 302
Joined: 21 Sep 2013, 8:15pm

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by 22camels »

Berghaus Vapour Storm is what I use now. Goretex outdoor jacket, not a cycling specific fit but that matters little to me and I can use it for hiking etc.. It has vents and is reasonably breathable but this depends on temperature and humidity and effort you are putting in. Also quite bright and visible with reflective panelling which is important to me. Can be found for £100-£150 you can spend much less on a waterproof jacket but maybe it won't be so breathable. A minus is only one pocket but it's not so bad. In terms of mm water resistance, I don't remember and I don't believe these numbers mean a lot.
User avatar
NUKe
Posts: 4161
Joined: 23 Apr 2007, 11:07pm
Location: Suffolk

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by NUKe »

I ha ve Altura Night vision, Which stands upto down pours extreemly well At slowish speeds it seems quite breathable. For harder riding I doubt this is anything. The lining is important as well.
NUKe
_____________________________________
iviehoff
Posts: 2411
Joined: 20 Jan 2009, 4:38pm

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by iviehoff »

You ask your question in an unfortunate way. Nobody rides 15m underwater. All you need is for the rain to stay out, and the behaviour of the fabric in deep water is irrelevant to that. If it ceases to be waterproof at even 1m depth of water that doesn't matter, you are already soaking wet through if you fell in the pond. Generally speaking if a manufacturer of a jacket or a tent is telling you how many metres head waterproof a textile is, you can conclude that they are not quality manufacturers: they are distracting you from their cheap quality with impressive-sounding specifications that are not actually relevant to your requirements.

Lack of proper maintenance is a common reason breathable waterproofs stop working. You need to wash, and, if appropriate, iron according to the manufacturer's instructions. What they often fail to mention is that any trace of fabric softener/conditioner, even from a previous wash, in the washing machine is a disaster for them, so safest to handwash, unless you can be sure that your washing machine is at least 3 washes beyond the last use of fabric softener. If the washing instructions allow ironing, you'll probably find that ironing, at the proper temperature, is very helpful.

I think Gore Bike Wear are as good as any you are going to get, and if you hunt around you can find something in your price range. My wife has a 15-yr-old Gore paclite jacket which she reckons is still waterproof and the best she ever had. My own high quality jacket is from a source no longer available.
nmnm
Posts: 470
Joined: 14 Nov 2010, 6:03pm

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by nmnm »

iviehoff wrote:if a manufacturer of a jacket or a tent is telling you how many metres head waterproof a textile is, you can conclude that they are not quality manufacturers: they are distracting you from their cheap quality
Hilleberg and Terra Nova site both detail that info. Floors are often made of higher rated fabrics not cos they sit 10m underwater but because they have to cope with a knee pressing down on the fabric atop waterlogged ground.

Agree about question though - just too general. Pop into any climbing shop, will be full of super rain jackets with hoods.
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20700
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by Vorpal »

There are many threads about waterproof jackets. I don't recall any discussing mm head water resistance with regard to the jackets.

The general consensus is that if a jacket is really waterproof, one gets wet from the inside (sweat), and if it isn't, one gets wet from the outside.

Here's a sample of threads about waterproof jackets

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=91203
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=77739
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76788
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70750
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by pjclinch »

iviehoff wrote:You ask your question in an unfortunate way. Nobody rides 15m underwater. All you need is for the rain to stay out, and the behaviour of the fabric in deep water is irrelevant to that.


Yet despite that a given hydrostatic head (IIRC 1m) is a requirement for a garment to be sold as "waterproof".

iviehoff wrote: Generally speaking if a manufacturer of a jacket or a tent is telling you how many metres head waterproof a textile is, you can conclude that they are not quality manufacturers: they are distracting you from their cheap quality with impressive-sounding specifications that are not actually relevant to your requirements.


Or perhaps they are playing the marketing game where Joe Punter chooses according to provable but meaningless numbers. And Joe Punter does do that, for some values of Joe Punter, so if you're in business selling waterproof gear it does make sense to say by how much you exceed the Magic Number.

iviehoff wrote:Lack of proper maintenance is a common reason breathable waterproofs stop working. You need to wash, and, if appropriate, iron according to the manufacturer's instructions. What they often fail to mention is that any trace of fabric softener/conditioner, even from a previous wash, in the washing machine is a disaster for them, so safest to handwash, unless you can be sure that your washing machine is at least 3 washes beyond the last use of fabric softener. If the washing instructions allow ironing, you'll probably find that ironing, at the proper temperature, is very helpful.


Up to a point, Lord Copper. The basic waterproofing is these days typically a function performed by a coating or membrane which will also pass water vapour through given a driving vapour pressure gradient (it "breathes"). That barrier is typically applied/laminated to a face fabric for a suitable tough and useful garment, and the face fabric in turn is usually treated with a "Durable Water Repellent" (DWR) finish, which encourages water to bead up and run off rather than soak in. If it soaks in you end up with a layer of liquid against the waterproof barrier which doesn't let it in, but in those conditions doesn't generally "breathe" vapor out either. The practical upshot is it gets a bit clammy inside.
Your paragraph above applies pretty much entirely to the DWR finish and not the actual waterproofing. That's not to say it's not important, because for the garment to be as comfy as possible it needs to breathe as well as possible, but if the DWR isn't doing it's stuff the waterproof barrier should remain unaffected and the garment shouldn't start leaking. Leaks are holes in the barrier layer, nothing to do with the DWR.

Back to the question in hand, for touring you'll probably get wet in the end because it's hard to stop water getting in through the neck when you're riding in to rain for hours at a time. The trick is not to get so fast that you get cold as well so as well as a decent jacket you want under-layers that don't get you chilled when wet (cotton is an obvious thing to miss there). I personally use an OMM Kamleika race jacket (https://www.theomm.com/products/clothing/kamleika-race-jacket-2/) which is properly waterproof, has a hood for off the bike and while not bike-specific has a decent drop-tail, and noty being bike specific has the pockets on the chest rather than behind, set to collect water running down your back. Decently long arms too.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
User avatar
foxyrider
Posts: 6044
Joined: 29 Aug 2011, 10:25am
Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by foxyrider »

i use a Gore jacket, it and the previous one have kept most wet out (you sweat if its warm so the wet inside isn't usually from the outside!). But they are not cheap.

Specialized do some nice goretex jackets @ your budget but not with a hood (its an extra on the Gore).
Convention? what's that then?
Airnimal Chameleon touring, Orbit Pro hack, Orbit Photon audax, Focus Mares AX tour, Peugeot Carbon sportive, Owen Blower vintage race - all running Tulio's finest!
iviehoff
Posts: 2411
Joined: 20 Jan 2009, 4:38pm

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by iviehoff »

nmnm wrote:
iviehoff wrote:if a manufacturer of a jacket or a tent is telling you how many metres head waterproof a textile is, you can conclude that they are not quality manufacturers: they are distracting you from their cheap quality
Hilleberg and Terra Nova site both detail that info. Floors are often made of higher rated fabrics not cos they sit 10m underwater but because they have to cope with a knee pressing down on the fabric atop waterlogged ground.

Hilleberg didn't used to, perhaps they have felt forced into it by the behaviour of the cheapies. It is, however, noticeable how small the hydrostatic head is on their tent outer fabrics in comparison with the bragging cheap tent manufacturers, and Hilleberg make perfectly waterproof tents that remain waterproof for many years.

The comment on floors is relevant. All the cheaper lightweight tent floors I have experienced have not in practice been waterproof when subjected to pressure like lying on them. We have to supply our own under-groundsheet to make them usable. For all the bragging about hydrostatic heads.
iviehoff
Posts: 2411
Joined: 20 Jan 2009, 4:38pm

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by iviehoff »

pjclinch wrote:
iviehoff wrote:Lack of proper maintenance is a common reason breathable waterproofs stop working. You need to wash, and, if appropriate, iron according to the manufacturer's instructions. What they often fail to mention is that any trace of fabric softener/conditioner, even from a previous wash, in the washing machine is a disaster for them, so safest to handwash, unless you can be sure that your washing machine is at least 3 washes beyond the last use of fabric softener. If the washing instructions allow ironing, you'll probably find that ironing, at the proper temperature, is very helpful.

Up to a point, Lord Copper. The basic waterproofing is these days typically a function performed by a coating or membrane which will also pass water vapour through given a driving vapour pressure gradient (it "breathes"). That barrier is typically applied/laminated to a face fabric for a suitable tough and useful garment, and the face fabric in turn is usually treated with a "Durable Water Repellent" (DWR) finish, which encourages water to bead up and run off rather than soak in. If it soaks in you end up with a layer of liquid against the waterproof barrier which doesn't let it in, but in those conditions doesn't generally "breathe" vapor out either. The practical upshot is it gets a bit clammy inside.
Your paragraph above applies pretty much entirely to the DWR finish and not the actual waterproofing. That's not to say it's not important, because for the garment to be as comfy as possible it needs to breathe as well as possible, but if the DWR isn't doing it's stuff the waterproof barrier should remain unaffected and the garment shouldn't start leaking. Leaks are holes in the barrier layer, nothing to do with the DWR.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. My experience is that often the DWR can stop or reduce its beading property and instead start soaking up the moisture when it is dirty, which makes sense because these are surface properties. (Fabric conditioner is in particular a highly surface active substance that prevents the beading property, even when present in very small quantities, and unlike similarly surface active detergent it doesn't get washed out.) Thus the clamminess comes on much faster, and gives the appearance of the jacket behaving more like a sieve than a waterproof coat, though it is actually increased condensation that is making you so wet. The purpose of cleaning (and in some cases ironing) is to restore the balling property on the DWR.

Whether ironing helps depends upon the natures of the fabrics and coating. In some cases, the ironing helps maintain the adhesion between the DWR and the waterproof layer. You need to take the manufacturer's advice, because it can also be utterly detrimental to some fabrics/coatings. I have found it sometimes also improves the balling properties.
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by pjclinch »

The DWR is applied to the face fabric rather than the waterproof layer, but aside from that you're on the money: the better the DWR is working the more comfortable the garment should be when it's getting Proper Rain incoming.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4556 is highly recommended, written by one of the chaps at Leeds Uni's testing facility for outdoor fabrics.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by pjclinch »

On Hydrostatic Heads...

If all else is equal, more is better. But all else is typically not equal. Particularly with a tent, if you take a really high quality tight woven fabric and apply an ample sufficiency of coating you'll have a waterproof (i.e., 1m+ HH) fabric. Now take a so-so fabric, and overdose it with a very heavy coating, and you can get a bigger HH measurement. Now take both out in to the field and use them, and without much of a good base the cheaper over-coated fabric degrades pretty fast and the better fabric with "merely" enough coating stays something like new for a lot longer.

Any company worth its salt will use decent waterproof fabrics and they will be technically waterproof and will keep the rain out. But looking at the actual fabric the waterproofing (be it a coating or a membrane) is attached to will probably give you a better idea about the overall quality of whatever it is you're looking at than a HH figure.

An interesting exception to all the brouhaha about HH figures is Paramo's system. It uses a two-component system with an outer windproof layer to intercept rain drops and take away their penetrative energy and a liner that uses a clever construction to keep any water that gets in to it on the outside edge, away from the wearer's body. This makes it effectively rain-proof. though it isn't formally waterproof (it would fail a hydrostatic head test). Paramo stuff doesn't need a watertight layer which helps it be far, far more breathable than anything that passes the HH "magic number". It can also deal with liquid water, moving it out from the wearer, while conventional waterproofs can only move vapour out. The drawback is it's heavier, bulkier and the liner is thermally roughly equivalent to a microfleece, fine if you'd be wearing one anyway, but a problem on a warm day and/or with high efforts.

Pete.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
User avatar
simonineaston
Posts: 8003
Joined: 9 May 2007, 1:06pm
Location: ...at a cricket ground

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by simonineaston »

Am loving my Velez Light - a smock from Paramo - which has dealt with all sorts of sh***y weather when I'm out walking, but it's not got a very cycle friendly cut - not long enough in the tail and arms, for me anyway. Don't know if they do a more cycle-specific garment but can thoroughly recommend the technology... my favourite cycling rain jacket is a paclight Goretex from TNF - the perfect cut for cycling and v. light. :P
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
User avatar
pjclinch
Posts: 5470
Joined: 29 Oct 2007, 2:32pm
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Contact:

Re: Rain Jacket

Post by pjclinch »

For Paramo cycling wear, look for the Ciclo, though there are others in the range with a longer drop tail than the Velez.
Often seen riding a bike around Dundee...
Post Reply