Scottish Independence Yes or No?

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Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Yes
22
50%
No
22
50%
 
Total votes: 44

thirdcrank
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by thirdcrank »

I see my recommendation of somebody more diplomatic has been heeded. At least the way seems now to be clear for it to be followed. :D
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Mick F
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by Mick F »

The Scots have voted NO, therefore he lost, therefore he falls on his sword.

I reckon he did very well to get where he got, even though I never ever liked him or respected him. Fair do's he did ok, but he failed in his aim.

Maybe he peaked too early?
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Vorpal
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by Vorpal »

For the sake of unity on this forum and elsewhere, the last part of this thread was binned. I really wasn't interested in trying sort the wheat from the chaff again. Apologies for the deletion of material that was interesting and relevant to the discussion

Please argue without insulting each other.

Thanks.
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― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
JohnW
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by JohnW »

Vorpal wrote:..............I really wasn't interested in trying sort the wheat from the chaff again..............


................or the benign.
c53204
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by c53204 »

The people (of which I am one), did exactly what Alex Salmond asked them to do "The people of Scotland will choose what is in Scotland's best interest". They did.
Psamathe
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by Psamathe »

c53204 wrote:The people (of which I am one), did exactly what Alex Salmond asked them to do "The people of Scotland will choose what is in Scotland's best interest". They did.

I do wonder if the result might have been a little affected by last minute promises. I guess the Scots have never heard the
Question: How can you tell when a politician is lying?
Answer: When his lips are moving.

And what gave everybody the idea that Gordon Brown has the authority to make amazing financial offers (e.g. Keeping the Barnett formula, etc.) on behalf of the UK when he is only a backbench MP and everything he was offering must actually be agreed to in Westminster Parliament subject to normal voting.

And when the 3 party leaders promise "something", their promises must also be agreed by Westminster. But they were very clever because they literally promised "something". So everybody had their own assumptions about what the mystical "something" might be. And now we discover that in fact each of them was actually meaning something different. And Cameron, pushed for time (it all being so "last minute") actually never had time to explain the linked conditions to his promise (i.e. the changes to happen in England in the same timescales, all linked).

Ian
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
The fact that 85 % voted meant they actually knew what they wanted, I thought that the turnout would not be that high but goes to show that they did think about what they wanted.

Because facts were very thin on the ground to support the yes, the rural folk were not impressed.

I don't think it had anything to do with the british gov, they need'nt of bothered.

Salmon might be radical enough to gain followers but not thorough and convincing enough with some evidence on why they were better on their own.

Its like being employed then thinking you will go the self employed route, only a small percentage actually suceed.
The thought of being on your own puts fear into most.

The Yes camp had stars in their eyes.
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georgew
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by georgew »

NATURAL ANKLING wrote:Hi,
The fact that 85 % voted meant they actually knew what they wanted, I thought that the turnout would not be that high but goes to show that they did think about what they wanted.

Because facts were very thin on the ground to support the yes, the rural folk were not impressed.

I don't think it had anything to do with the british gov, they need'nt of bothered.

Salmon might be radical enough to gain followers but not thorough and convincing enough with some evidence on why they were better on their own.

Its like being employed then thinking you will go the self employed route, only a small percentage actually suceed.
The thought of being on your own puts fear into most.

The Yes camp had stars in their eyes.


Yes, I dare-say that you're right.
That the Government assembled the Treasury, the Bank of England, the City of London, the Banks, the Supermarket Chiefs and the various Heads of Insurance companies in order that they issue dire warnings of the consequences of Independence probably had nothing to do with it. :roll:
Still I'm sure the Scottish people's confidence in the promises of politicians will prove to be justified....oh hang on a bit...it seems that barely was the count in when David Cameron had made his promise of Devo-max for Scotland contingent upon the progress for the same for England. Now who would have thought that could happen..........
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NATURAL ANKLING
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by NATURAL ANKLING »

Hi,
Did the scots believe their own polititians more or less than the british government :?: If so why :?:
But we will never know if yes and no camp were swayed by the Gov will we.

As someone who has been guinuinely self employed for three decades but did contract work for a quarter of that under self employed guise, before that worked in a large international firm on military contracts, I see both sides of the coin for little and large.

In a large organisation there is stability but the rolling ball is hard to stop or even swerve.
Things can go un noticed because you think some other will pick up the pieces its someone elses job and an individual will make little mark on the grand scale.
If our Gov hand down tenders and contracts to small firms or even authority to councils they still need checks, and it is the checks also in main government led organisations, well the lack of which has led to ugly situations being exposed.
Checks are preventive maintainance if its OK then move on if its not then fix PDQ, without its just an accident waiting to happen.

I am not sure that just dividing things up completly works as a small firm has little clout on the rest, if something needs changing especially if you are the only one, people feel safer in groups or put another way they are stronger even if its for the wrong cause.

We have fantastic comunication nowerdays but you still have in the pile slow moving organisations / all powerful individuals.

Then there's elite groups who in their powerful persuasion normally have themselves in mind and their offspring.............a bad mix in anyones book.
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pete75
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by pete75 »

georgew wrote:
Yes, I dare-say that you're right.
That the Government assembled the Treasury, the Bank of England, the City of London, the Banks, the Supermarket Chiefs and the various Heads of Insurance companies in order that they issue dire warnings of the consequences of Independence probably had nothing to do with it. :roll:
Still I'm sure the Scottish people's confidence in the promises of politicians will prove to be justified....oh hang on a bit...it seems that barely was the count in when David Cameron had made his promise of Devo-max for Scotland contingent upon the progress for the same for England. Now who would have thought that could happen..........


Has it not occurred to you that those people were stating what they believed would be the consequences of Scottish independence rather than mouthing words the government had given them. There's also the not insignificant fact that the SNP had no plan for the nation's currency in the event of independence.

Why shouldn't England have separate powers similar to Scotland where matters pertaining only to England are concerned. What is wrong with that?
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Psamathe
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by Psamathe »

pete75 wrote:There's also the not insignificant fact that the SNP had no plan for the nation's currency in the event of independence.

I'm not sure that is such a big an issue as Darling was making out it was. If one thinks more fundamentally about what currency is for, basically a system of barter in that it is more flexible and easier than finding somebody who wants to both have the sack of potatoes you have grown and has something you want/need in return. OK, the "markets" worry about stability and valuation fluctuations, but they are just the wealthy 1% (the bankers we all love so much) after guaranteed bonuses. And many countries keep a lot of reserves in gold rather than their own currency (though that would clearly be a big risk for Scotland given a certain G Brown is now based in Scotland and has "experience" of selling other peoples' gold).

And calling using sterling without a currency union "the panama option" is further scare tactics. Many countries have used the dollar (or have their own currency pegged to the dollar) very successfully. Just look at Belize and their quite significant banking sector.

Not saying it is ideal and I'm not an economist but I think too much was made of this single issue. And both sides had economic experts who supported each opposing opinion. Whose experts were right and whose experts got more press coverage.

pete75 wrote:Why shouldn't England have separate powers similar to Scotland where matters pertaining only to England are concerned. What is wrong with that?

I think it is far more than "why shouldn't ..." but that "England MUST". And (again I'm no expert) the only practical way I can see it happening is for there to be a separate English Parliament. All these bodges Cameron is coming up with (the "English votes for English laws" create more problems than they solve - its far more complex than Cameron seems to grasp (disappointing in itself).

Ian
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georgew
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by georgew »

pete75 wrote:
georgew wrote:
Yes, I dare-say that you're right.
That the Government assembled the Treasury, the Bank of England, the City of London, the Banks, the Supermarket Chiefs and the various Heads of Insurance companies in order that they issue dire warnings of the consequences of Independence probably had nothing to do with it. :roll:
Still I'm sure the Scottish people's confidence in the promises of politicians will prove to be justified....oh hang on a bit...it seems that barely was the count in when David Cameron had made his promise of Devo-max for Scotland contingent upon the progress for the same for England. Now who would have thought that could happen..........


Has it not occurred to you that those people were stating what they believed would be the consequences of Scottish independence rather than mouthing words the government had given them. There's also the not insignificant fact that the SNP had no plan for the nation's currency in the event of independence.

Why shouldn't England have separate powers similar to Scotland where matters pertaining only to England are concerned. What is wrong with that?


If that was the case then why was it necessary for No 10 to send an email asking these organisations to make these declarations (I take it you've read the leaked email).
If you believe that above organisations are indeed unlikely to be influenced by the Government, then why would they be prepared to pay £2500 to the Conservative Party for the privilege of meeting the David Cameron and his Ministers?

As to your point regarding Scottish MP's voting upon English matters then you will hear no complaint from me. It will mean of course that the Tories automatically have an inbuilt majority on these matters in Westminster, so if you are content with zero hours contracts and Food Banks in our streets then I imagine this is good news.
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gaz
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by gaz »

pete75 wrote:Why shouldn't England have separate powers similar to Scotland where matters pertaining only to England are concerned. What is wrong with that?

Well the decision that England's powers should be for the English appears to have been made by a Scottish referendum that said we should remain a Union :? . Democracy in action :lol: .

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Psamathe
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by Psamathe »

gaz wrote:
pete75 wrote:Why shouldn't England have separate powers similar to Scotland where matters pertaining only to England are concerned. What is wrong with that?

Well the decision that England's powers should be for the English appears to have been made by a Scottish referendum that said we should remain a Union :? . Democracy in action :lol: .

The higher up the plum tree grows...

I problems stem from that Cameron made promise and undertakings that he was in no position to make. He needed the approval of Parliament and he rather omitted to get that. And if he angers the Scottish he worst case loses one MP (?), but if he angers the English he faces losing a lot of MPs, and, worst of all, if he angers his backbenchers he loses his job; and with Boris "waiting in the wings ...".

Ian
TonyR
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Re: Scottish Independence Yes or No?

Post by TonyR »

georgew wrote:That the Government assembled the Treasury, the Bank of England, the City of London, the Banks, the Supermarket Chiefs and the various Heads of Insurance companies in order that they issue dire warnings of the consequences of Independence probably had nothing to do with it. :roll:


You mean

Image

Still I'm sure the Scottish people's confidence in the promises of politicians will prove to be justified....oh hang on a bit...it seems that barely was the count in when David Cameron had made his promise of Devo-max for Scotland contingent upon the progress for the same for England. Now who would have thought that could happen..........


Come on. How long has the West Lothian question been around and you don't think it needs resolving as part of giving much greater powers to Scotland? Even if you'd never heard of it it was debated enough in the papers when the promises were being made.
Last edited by TonyR on 22 Sep 2014, 10:10am, edited 1 time in total.
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