Why isnt there a womans TDF?

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
ukdodger
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by ukdodger »

thirdcrank wrote:
tatanab wrote:In recent years there has been one, called Le Tour Feminine. A week long as I remember it.


The discussion seems to have overlooked this post, which is correct (except for the howler in the French grammar.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_de_Fr ... C3%A9minin

I don't remember seeing any publicity about it at the time, although that may say more about my memory than the extent of the publicity. :oops:


It's the first I've heard of it. Cant figure out why it didnt attract enough interest. Maybe they ran it at the wrong time. Closer to the men's event might have drawn more attention.
Bicycler
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by Bicycler »

Sooper8 wrote:So, is anyone going to go near the issue of morality that lets a market decide the worth of a persons talents?

Well this is par for la course in all other careers. Your wage isn't a reflection of your value as a person. As with any job, you aren't being paid for your talents as much as what they produce. For sports this is audiences and sponsorship revenue. Having talents for something which is not in high demand doesn't get you high pay. You get paid more for being a good footballer than for being a good croquet player because people football generates more money than croquet.
Sooper8
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by Sooper8 »

Bicycler wrote:
Sooper8 wrote:So, is anyone going to go near the issue of morality that lets a market decide the worth of a persons talents?

Well this is par for la course in all other careers. Your wage isn't a reflection of your value as a person. As with any job, you aren't being paid for your talents as much as what they produce. For sports this is audiences and sponsorship revenue. Having talents for something which is not in high demand doesn't get you high pay. You get paid more for being a good footballer than for being a good croquet player because people football generates more money than croquet.


So,same question again just worded differently then- is it right?

And just to pick up a couple of your points -I didn't mention 'value as a person'. And,I don't understand how footballers 'produce' anything.
thirdcrank
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by thirdcrank »

I think it's useful to consider the change in connotation of the word "amateur" at least within the UK, during the last few decades. It's now virtually synonymous with "incompetent," whereas it once equated to "superior," including the implications of social class.
Bicycler
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by Bicycler »

Sooper8 wrote:So,same question again just worded differently then- is it right?


Winston Churchill wrote:The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries


Nobody seems to have come up with any sustainable economic system which works better than regulated forms of capitalism. The outcomes may not always appear fair but no other system has done any better. I don't know if it is right but it is not any more nor any less right when applied to professional sports than to any other occupation. Professional sports (and professional sportspeople) exist to make money, so it does not seem immoral for wages to be related to how much money is raised.

Sooper8 wrote:And just to pick up a couple of your points -I didn't mention 'value as a person'. And, I don't understand how footballers 'produce' anything.
Apologies, you said "worth of a person's talents". Can you think of any better way of estimating the value of those talents? Footballers don't produce goods like a factory worker but they produce the entertainment that determines the value of the sport which is then packaged and sold to the fans and broadcasters
Sooper8
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by Sooper8 »

Bicycler,

I don't agree with you but appreciate your measured and thoughtful response.

Maybe the part I don't accept is that premise that capitalism is 'sustainable economic system'. I believe it's broke and is unfixable.

From this starting point, we diverge and for me this is the root of why a 'Women's Tour de France' (as the op asks) isn't going to happen until it makes money for someone. Which is probably your view too?
Vorpal
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by Vorpal »

thirdcrank wrote:We do seem to be a bit unclear about what's being discussed. It seems to me that either competitors are paid what the market judges they are worth, or else we argue for something based on what I'll call worthiness. Under such a system there could be no professional sport.


We are discussing why there isn't a women's TdF. Conditions for women in sport, including pay is one of many reasons.

Many women who are capable of competing in professional sports do not do so because they can't make a living at it. That includes cycling, where I've seen several promising young women go to university so they can become professional coaches, physiotherapists, or teachers, and enjoy cycling as a hobby. I don't know what they might have done if making a living as professional cyclists were a more attractive option, but I suspect that at least a couple of them would have had a go.

I asked the question, about how we should determine pay, but I haven't had an answer. Even if I accept that it is fair to pay women less, the current system is blatantly unfair. Would improved pay ensure a women's Tour de France? Not immediately. There are too many factors that need come together, but it's a start.

There are, of course, other factors, and the commercial interests which you rightly pointed out are probably the most significant.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Bicycler
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by Bicycler »

Sooper8 wrote:Maybe the part I don't accept is that premise that capitalism is 'sustainable economic system'. I believe it's broke and is unfixable.

Just to be clear, I have no love for the current economic system but nor do I see it going anywhere soon. In the absence of a completely fair system which has yet to arise I feel we must endeavour to regulate the existing system to remove its worst excesses. I don't include sportspersons' wages in that category.

Sooper8 wrote:for me this is the root of why a 'Women's Tour de France' (as the op asks) isn't going to happen until it makes money for someone. Which is probably your view too?

Yes. Unless a women's tour is profitable in its own right no-one will choose to run it at a loss. If there is the political will to see the race go ahead then things could be done. The obvious idea is to combine the advertising and broadcasting packages for mens and womens races effectively subsidising the women's event and increasing its prominence.
thirdcrank
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by thirdcrank »

Vorpal

I take on everything you are saying and I'm not dismissing it by just answering this bit:

Vorpal wrote: ... I asked the question, about how we should determine pay, but I haven't had an answer. ....


Currently, the market largely determines pay and that is especially so in professional sport. The market economy leads to all manner of apparent unfairness, which is particularly apparent to the people who are not doing well out of it at any given time. This is all aggravated by the effects of class, "race," and sex. I've tried to illustrate how the market has been happy to forget about skin colour when there's money to be made in professional sport and I'd take some convincing that the same forces are not in operation in fixing the pay of women in professional sport. The trend, in the UK at least, is to reinforce the market eg legislation against organised labour. Official policies to rectify pay inequality in socially important jobs, usually already in the public sector in the UK anyway, are unpopular, partly because the government vigorously spins against its own workforce.

Were I able to wave a wand and remove some of the unfairness in human society, the introduction of pay parity in professional sport would not be on my agenda.
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by Vorpal »

thirdcrank wrote:Were I able to wave a wand and remove some of the unfairness in human society, the introduction of pay parity in professional sport would not be on my agenda.


That's fair enough. My magic wand would do away with discrimination.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
AlanD
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by AlanD »

Switching on to watch the final of the TDF, I was very pleased to see a ladies competition. And no, it's not down to leering at the lycra. The pace was exciting and I was hoping that having it on was doing a good PR job in the house with someone sitting next to me.
Yes, I had wondered this very question myself and having read through seven pages of comments, I'm surprised nobody has said the one thing that came to my mind.
There is a practical distinction which ensures other ladies sports such as tennis and athletics cannot compare with a ladies TDF. The changing room is never far away and whereas male riders taking a 'natural break' by the roadside would be easy, quick and not attract any attention AHEM! :oops: Can the same be said for a lady doing the same :oops: :oops: :oops:

sorry :oops:
ukdodger
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by ukdodger »

Alan D wrote:Switching on to watch the final of the TDF, I was very pleased to see a ladies competition. And no, it's not down to leering at the lycra. The pace was exciting and I was hoping that having it on was doing a good PR job in the house with someone sitting next to me.
Yes, I had wondered this very question myself and having read through seven pages of comments, I'm surprised nobody has said the one thing that came to my mind.
There is a practical distinction which ensures other ladies sports such as tennis and athletics cannot compare with a ladies TDF. The changing room is never far away and whereas male riders taking a 'natural break' by the roadside would be easy, quick and not attract any attention AHEM! :oops: Can the same be said for a lady doing the same :oops: :oops: :oops:

sorry :oops:


That's quite an interesting point. Cant remember seeing any female cyclists doing a Paula Radcliff. My wife said once that women learn as kids to hold on to it for the very same reason. So maybe training has increased their range.
irc
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by irc »

Maybe there just isn't enough top female road racers to make a female TDF worthwhile? After all to look at another very tough event which is open to both males and females the 2007 Paris - Brest - Paris event had 4958 male entrants and 354 female.

http://www.aukweb.net/handbook/histpbp.htm
ukdodger
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by ukdodger »

irc wrote:Maybe there just isn't enough top female road racers to make a female TDF worthwhile? After all to look at another very tough event which is open to both males and females the 2007 Paris - Brest - Paris event had 4958 male entrants and 354 female.

http://www.aukweb.net/handbook/histpbp.htm


Were they picked entrants are did they just sign up?
Ben@Forest
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Re: Why there isnt a womans TDF?

Post by Ben@Forest »

ukdodger wrote:Were they picked entrants are did they just sign up?



You just sign up - but you have to have completed qualifying events beforehand, that's simply to ensure those who sign up really know what is expected of them.

http://www.paris-brest-paris.org/index2.php?lang=en&cat=preparation&page=calendrier_brevet
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