calling all you IGH experts!!

General cycling advice ( NOT technical ! )
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simonineaston
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calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by simonineaston »

(assuming there is more-than-one, AKA Brucey...;-) )
I've been enjoying a Sturmey Archer 8 speed hub (their current model) for a few years now, but it has a very intermittent issue, which I've posted about on this very forum in the past.
It came with yellow/grey grease as the lubricant and I've been mindful to change the grease for something else - that time has arrived!
How would folk remove the grease? Please don't tell me to disemble the hub and all of its components... :shock: I would prefer to adopt a quicker method! Will it be OK to flush it with white spirit, do you think?
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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BeeKeeper
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by BeeKeeper »

I am not sure I can offer much advice but here goes. As far I know there are two sorts of grease. The originals* use a petroleum based solvent but there are also synthetic greases around which use a silicon based solvent. White spirit won't touch these latter I fear, although I could be wrong. If you could extract some of the grease you could find what dissolves it but I would be unsure what effect white spirit might have on the seals. Petrol might be a better approach, it should certainly degrease it quickly, assuming it isn't a silicon grease but again what will the seals be like? A safer alternative might be to fill it as far as possible with a very light oil and then go for a long pedal and then drain it out - although depending on how good the seals are it might all have drained out by the end of the ride. :(

*the really original grease was a blend of animal fat and oil but I suspect you wouldn't find this in anything outside of an early 19th Century bike!
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simonineaston
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by simonineaston »

Excellent advice, Mr. BeeKeeper - you've raised several issues there I hadn't considered! :-)
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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simonineaston
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by simonineaston »

And another thing... I'm planning to use Castrol's L-EP0 which I learn is: "a Lithium based, semi-fluid grease. Ideally suited for use in grease packed differentials and gearboxes requiring a semi-liquid, self-levelling grease including Sturmey Archer, Burman etc."
I see from other threads that this product is idealy suited for gearboxes that receive intermittent use, which is exactly what happens to the SA on my Safari.
I am assured that the product is winging its way to me under the auspices of the Royal Mail as we speak - how much do you think I should use and how do I get it into the shell - with a teaspoon??
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Brucey
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by Brucey »

I think the grease you have bought is similar to (or better than) the stuff that I have seen in SA 3s and 5s hubs. I've not dealt with many SA 8s hubs so I can't comment on what different kinds of grease they might have used in them, but none of the SA hubs that I have cleaned didn't clean up using the normal solvents.

In the broader scheme of things I would be surprised if they used a Silicon based grease in an IGH because it would be both expensive and a poor lubricant in most cases. I don't claim any special knowledge here but if there are any Silicon greases that are suitable for this kind of thing I'd be interested to hear about them.

The factory grease that I have seen has always resembled Castrol LM but made one or two NLGI grades thinner. Greases often smell the way they do because of the oils and soaps that are used in them. Whenever they have a significant amount of EP additives in them these tend to dominate the aroma (think how gear oil smells vs engine oil) and solid lubricants obviously change the colour.

I'd expect the new grease you have bought to smell a bit more like gear oil than (say) Castrol LM grease. As it happens I think it will work OK if applied correctly but don't assume that the mention of sturmey archer on the can makes it so; this reference is in respect of SA motorcycle gearboxes etc from the 1920s. The grease is used in quantity inside these gearboxes. Note that this kind of grease thins appreciably when it is sheared or when it is hot; if it never gets hot it may never get to all parts of the hub unless it is placed there from the start.

so if you are using this kind of grease the best way to clean and relubricate this kind of hub is to dismantle it and reassemble it, applying grease to every part as it is assembled. That is pretty much how they do it in the factory.

Even removing the centre from the hub and washing the whole assembly in solvent (eg. paraffin) risks two things; first that the assembly is contaminated with solvent (which is a good way of degrading any new lubricant) and second that the new lubricant won't penetrate to the pinion bushings etc and other places where it is really needed.

Normally if greases separate it is viewed as a bad thing, but with externally applied grease of this sort on an IGH centre it might be a good thing; the separated oil might be the only thing that penetrates the least accessible parts of the hub.

If you apply about double the quantity of grease vs the amount used from new this will help the grease to get everywhere it needs to, but.... the excess will leak out and make a mess or onto/into any hub brake there might be. It also risks the hub going baulky in cold weather.

BTW the lack of mobility of the standard grease is clear enough; when I have dismantled failing SA (or shimano) hubs and parts have started to wear or break up, the shrapnel gets mixed with the grease but normally remains confined to the region where the wear is happening. It is unusual to find debris strewn throughout the hub, whereas this is exactly what happens inside an oil-lubricated hub.

SB has some useful info on the topic of lubrication here;

http://sheldonbrown.com/internal-gears.html#lubrication

cheers
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Brucey~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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simonineaston
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by simonineaston »

Thanks. I'm now resigned to dismantling the hub (which I have to anyway, for another reason which I'll come back too...), washing the centre with solvent/soapy water, then drying it in a low oven (gas regulo 1... ;-) ), which is what I do to my chains (now-and-then), then smothering everything with the EP0 and back together again.
I have to take down the hub to finish off the conversion to use on my Moulton - the supplied fulcrum lever wasn't at the right angle to fit onto the F frame's slightly unusual drop-outs and I have had to remove some material from the lever in order to rotate it enough to accomodate the hub's position in the Moulton drop-outs. Originally the fulcrum lever keyed onto its washer snuggly, but now missing some material, it will have to be silver-soldered into postion. The fulcrum lever is at present stuck in place onto the washer with epoxy resin, which won't last forever, hence the dissembly.
8 speed hub ***upside down***
8 speed hub ***upside down***

Note the lightened fulcrum lever, which adds at least 3 mph to my cruising speed... ;-)
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Brucey
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by Brucey »

this might sound like a daft comment but I have often wondered why IGH's with rotary shifters have a cassette joint or a fulcrum lever mounted on the hub. It seems to me that it is just another place where there is a joint that can become loose and mess up the shifting etc.

I know it is meant to spare you the awful inconvenience of having to adjust the gears when the rear wheel is moved, but IME it is wise to check the gear adjustment more often than the wheel is moved anyway. In addition if the parts are designed correctly the gear adjustment should be no hardship.

I have wondered if it wouldn't be better to use a cable stop on the chainstay, a long barrel adjuster somewhere, and do it like that.

I guess the fulcrum lever does help prevent you from putting in the wheel upside down, too, but that wouldn't be such a problem anyway if (say) the shift drum had two identical cable mounting slots in it.

BTW go easy with the 'low oven' treatment; IIRC most SA hubs have a few plastic parts in them these days.

I would worry enormously about the new grease making its way to the RH bearing and shifter mechanism if you are just smearing it on the centre, too.

cheers
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simonineaston
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by simonineaston »

Brucey wrote:I have wondered if it wouldn't be better to use a cable stop on the chainstay, a long barrel adjuster somewhere, and do it like that...
BTW go easy with the 'low oven' treatment; IIRC most SA hubs have a few plastic parts in them these days...
I would worry enormously about the new grease making its way to the RH bearing and shifter mechanism if you are just smearing it on the centre, too.

I spent some time mulling over the possibility of a cable-stop on the swing arm - I can't quite remember why I plumped for the fulcrum lever now! The 8 speed definitely does have some plastic parts in the shifter side but none in the centre, as far as I know; I've seen a vid. of a centre module tear-down - might have to study it in closer detail...
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Thermostat9
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by Thermostat9 »

simonineaston wrote:I see from other threads that this product is idealy suited for gearboxes that receive intermittent use, which is exactly what happens to the SA on my Safari.
I am assured that the product is winging its way to me under the auspices of the Royal Mail as we speak - how much do you think I should use and how do I get it into the shell - with a teaspoon??

I've been using it in the X-RD8 I fitted to my TSR for a couple of years.

Being nosey I wanted to look inside the hub when I got it and was astonished to see how little lube it had in there. So I smothered the three sets of planetary gears with lashings of EP0 and it has been fine. I did a bit of a clean out earlier in the year (18 months or so of use) and the creamy grease had become somewhat grey. So a wash in solvent and a repack. I'll have another look, maybe next spring. If I remember I'll do a boring video on how to take it apart, but if you know your way round any other Sturmey hub you should be able to work it out.

(I do pack the wheel bearings and dust seal cap with whatever bearing grease I have to hand, Rocol waterproof last time, as I don't think the EP0 would be up to that.....!)
Thermostat9
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by Thermostat9 »

Brucey wrote:The factory grease that I have seen has always resembled Castrol LM but made one or two NLGI grades thinner.

Somewhere (and I can't find it now) I have seen the Sturmey 'factory' grease listed as EP0 but I have also seen it as EP00, which is one grade thinner. I guess the racers would want the lower NLGI number! :wink:
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simonineaston
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by simonineaston »

and was astonished to see how little lube it had in there.
Gosh - p'raps it was just as well you had a peek! Mine has a lot of grease so maybe they were put together by a different mechanic? :?
Good to hear about someone else using EP0 successfully. I hadn't thought about using a different consistancy grease for the bearings - I sure have picked up some good advice from this topic - glad I posted!!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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simonineaston
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by simonineaston »

Brucey wrote:I have wondered if it wouldn't be better to use a cable stop on the chainstay, a long barrel adjuster somewhere, and do it like that.

I've remembered why I decided against the cable stop idea now - originally I too liked the idea of a cable stop on the rear fork arm, but when I lined it all up to see if it would work, it seemd to me that the cable stop would have to be a fair way back down the arm, for the cable to enter the shifter pulley at the right angle. This would have meant that there was a long length of exposed cable inner between the hub and the cable stop and I thought this would represent an opportunity for water and grit to foul the cable and get up into the outer. I did think about a rubber gaiter to protect the junction but in the end the attraction of the cable outer going right down to the fulcrum lever won me over!
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
Brucey
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by Brucey »

I guess.... mind you, most gear systems have an exposed length of inner cable thereabouts, and many are in a position that is primo for crud gathering.

On MTBs with seatstay mounted gear cables, I have found that these

Image

work well, so the rubber bellows isn't the only way of keeping the worst of the crud out.

cheers
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simonineaston
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Re: calling all you IGH experts!!

Post by simonineaston »

Thermostat9 wrote:(I do pack the wheel bearings and dust seal cap with whatever bearing grease I have to hand, Rocol waterproof last time,

That Rocol looks like posh stuff (if Grease can be considered 'posh'...) - where'dya get it, if you don't mind me asking?
S
(on the look out for Armageddon, on board a Brompton nano & ever-changing Moultons)
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